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ZOE QUINN'S NUCLEAR OPTION by Mr Biffo

9/11/2015

57 Comments

 
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This week marks a year since I started Digitiser2000, since I re-emerged on Twitter, and decided that I'd spent quite long enough in the proverbial wilderness.

Of course... I wasn't in the wilderness at all: I've got a job and a life, which kept me plenty busy in the years between then and then. To be honest, I wasn't ready to come back any sooner; I had some important stuff to do. 

Far be it to parp my own honkington, but we've just had our biggest ever week on Digi2000 by a significant margin; over 25,000 unique users in the last week alone. 

Admittedly, 15,000 of those were over this past weekend, thanks to one of you sharing the Cliff Richard piece on Reddit.... but as first anniversary gifts go, it beats a bag of dog dirt.

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Frankly, deciding to do Digitiser2000 was one of the best decisions I ever made. Now, it feels like I've always been doing it.

However, the hours after I hit 'send' on those first couple of tweets, I was terrified. I'd had eight years of relative anonymity, and I'd not gone away in the happiest of circumstances. 


Let's face it, we never know what people are really going through from their behaviour online alone. If you're cornered and feel powerless and broken, and you're dealing with some major shit in your life, you're far more likely to behave like a dick. Everybody deserves a chance to prove there's more to them than that.

While I was pretty sure I wouldn't mess up when I returned, and had forgiven and forgotten, I couldn't speak for everyone else. 
I needn't have worried, though.

HUMBLE PIE

I know I've said it before, but I'm genuinely humbled by the kindness and generosity of everyone over the past year.

From those who have supported the site financially through one-off donations or monthly sponsorship, to everyone who has taken the time to share the content, or send me a message saying lovely things, or who came up to me at PlayExpo, or who just reads the site regularly - it has been incredibly rewarding, life-affirming, and healing.


Some days I don't think I deserve it. Other days I'm just overwhelmed by it. So... thank you, whoever you are. I hope that the site continues to repay your faith in it. In me. Thanks for giving me that second chance. 

Anyhow... I dunno if I've mentioned this before, but among the many things that inspired my comeback were these two things:
 ​Zoe Quinn and Gamergate...

QUINNTERNET

​You probably know who Zoe Quinn is. She's the bright spark that started Gamergate - a relatively unknown indie developer, who had her private life splashed across the Internet, which led to a campaign of harassment beneath the umbrella of a crusade for better ethics in games journalism. 

When Quinn's story first broke in August of last year, I empathised with her. I'd had my share of online grief, and even thought about reaching out to her. I knew the damage it could do, and just how nasty it could get. I knew first hand how powerless you can feel, and that the police can only do so much.

As it transpired, what Quinn went through appeared to be far in excess of my own stuff. Instead, I watched her coping, fighting back, and figured that if she could weather it, I probably could too.


And now Zoe Quinn has signed a deal to publish her memoir, which is also being turned into a movie. Reports suggest that Scarlett Johanssen is eyeing the role of Quinn. 

If you view Gamergate as a war, Zoe Quinn just employed the nuclear option. Unfortunately, I fear that far from Gamergaters surrendering unconditionally, and spend the next century making reparations and Godzilla movies, they're going to be driven to respond in kind.

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NO GG... NO SJW... NO THANKS
I'm not a Gamergater, I'm not a Social Justice Warrior, I just wish naively that people would get along.

Unfortunately, too many people in our society seem to adopt a "You're with me or you're my enemy" approach to a world that is never that black and white.

From calling out people on Facebook who don't wear Remembrance Day poppies, to being guilt-tripped by millionaires into supporting their latest charitable cause, rational debate - a genuine roadmap to a better world - often gets lost amid the fog of blind loyalty to a rigid frame of reference.

When it comes to Gamergate, 12 months ago I erred towards the side of those being harassed. And yet, over the past year I've concluded that Gamergate is an utter waste of time. Those involved, whatever their allegiance, appear to be perpetuating the fight, unable to back down, and unable or unwilling to stop winding up the other side. It makes me despair.

Any sort of reasoned argument, any valid points, end up getting drowned out beneath a cacophony of hysteria. It brings embarrassment to video games, frankly, and there are those on both sides who should be utterly ashamed of themselves. It needs to go away, and we just need to get on with the reason we're all here: to play games and have a good time.

And now there's a Quinn book, and potentially a movie to follow, so you can guarantee that Gamergate isn't going anywhere anytime soon. In fact, I fear that it's going to get worse.


Hollywood biopics inevitably adopt a degree of dramatic license. How is that going to be taken by those who already accuse Quinn, Anita Sarkeesian, and others of being liars? I'll tell you how it's going to be taken: badly. Very badly indeed.

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ROFL HARRASS
To stop my own harassment I had to disappear.

​I was fortunate that I had something to fall back on in terms of work (though I ended up pursuing jobs that - mostly - allowed me to disappear beneath the radar; among the things I backed out of or sabotaged were a travel book, an adult sitcom and a couple of documentaries). 

When I was still around, I never made the situation better by lashing out, fighting back, or drawing more attention to myself. Any time I was dumb or panicked or hurting enough to do that, things escalated.

That is all that's going to happen with Gamergate, and I fear the worst about the upcoming Quinn projects. I'm not saying that people should have to disappear and potentially scupper their careers, but they can choose not to fight. Taking that route isn't cowardice, it isn't handing victory to the other side. Talking, adopting a policy of non-aggressive engagement, is the only route to conflict resolution that makes any sense.

If we all laid down our arms, there would be no more conflict anywhere in the world.


NOT ABOUT WHAT?
Video games are not about Gamergate, but if this movie goes ahead then all people who play video games are going to end up becoming tarred with the same brush, potentially forced into one camp or another. It's going to be another flashpoint, and we're going to look increasingly like a community of in-fighting nerds. 

Those who feel they have a diminished voice will try all the harder to make their voices heard - and you can bet they're not going to go about it in a rational, diplomatic way.

Similarly, I can imagine that some of those who they oppose will take a Hollywood movie as some sort of vindication or victory, and use it as an opportunity to gloat. Which is great, because if there's something that all people love it's being looked down upon by those who appear to be in a position of privilege.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter who is right, and who is wrong. In any conflict, where people are being hurt, and lives being ruined, the only way to stop it is for one side or the other to step outside the cycle, and strive for a better way forward... either for the cause, or for yourself as an individual.

Unless, of course, they don't want it to stop, because it's finally given their life some degree of meaning, or greater purpose. But here's a tip: doxxing Anita Sarkeesian, or using a YouTube video to belittle someone who's angry, isn't going to get you a lifelong membership to Paradise. There are no virgins waiting on the other side. And nor is it going to give you a better life now; it's just going to waste the chances you have been given.

​Take it from someone who knows.

FROM THE ARCHIVE:
ONE YEAR ON: GAMERGATE EXPLAINED
WHAT VIDEO GAMES WOULD THE ANIMALS PLAY IF THE ANIMALS COULD PLAY GAMES?
MEGA-QUIZ 5 BILLION - Presented by a G... G... GHOST!


57 Comments
MrPSB
9/11/2015 03:25:02 pm

SIMON, YOU'RE UP

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Some bloke pretending to be Simon
9/11/2015 09:06:43 pm

Gamergate makes my mouth go all itchy.

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chris
9/11/2015 03:35:28 pm

great piece!

i'm not sure i can settle on the "they're both wrong" middle-ground; even before and excluding the harassement, the most tepid reading of the gamergate side is that it's anti-critical freedom. it's anti-intellectualism to protect our hobby from improvement, in service of "creative freedom" in an industry that has nothing meaningful of the sort.

it's a tragic state of affairs that gamers get older, yet the most vocal subset seem to be so unable to cope with basic ideas of criticism. only in the gaming could a single, extremeley moderate cultural commentator (sarkessian) be news, yet films, tv, books, etc, have far more harsher applications of the same feminist readings (and other cultural criticism), yet these industries remain far more creatively diverse.

i see nothing positive or worth saving from the gamergate argument. any claims of corruption in the gaming press were addressed far more sensibly in the fallout from 'doritogate' a few years back. now the claims are repeated in bad faith to silence people gamergate don't like.

(there are plenty of people on the "SJW" side who make absurd arguments, of course, but I at least see an intrinsic value and purpose to cultural commentary, in moderation)

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Stoo
9/11/2015 06:21:57 pm

Right, the two sides are not equally bad, or equally right, or equally wrong.

Team social Justice can be obnoxious and Tumblrish but they're pushing toward fundamentally good goals - better representation of women both in games, and amongst the people making games. Gamergate is just an unpleasant kneejerk against that.

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andy link
10/11/2015 12:59:09 am

I agree with Stoo and chris. That is all.

Mr Darcy
9/11/2015 03:41:29 pm

Did Biffo just out himself as the videogames journalism equivalent of Doctor Who?

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dab88
9/11/2015 08:21:13 pm

hahaha, that is exactly what I was thinking. It's 100% on point though.... from both the Doctor and Biffo. This article sums up why Digitiser NEEDS to exist in todays age of games 'journalism'. It's about the only balanced and mature voice out there and one that NEEDS to be heard- especially by the younger generation that are all too willing to follow some corporate marketing or some eejit with a loud voice. Keep it up Doctor Biffo!

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antony adler
9/11/2015 03:42:14 pm

i like computer games.

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Barry Barry Barry Barry
9/11/2015 08:30:21 pm

i like computer games also (some of them, not all of them, that would be ludicrous).

Also, nice one Monsieur Biffo-chops!

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Lurp
9/11/2015 03:46:32 pm

I think this website is gamerGREAT!!!!1111111one

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Harry Steele
9/11/2015 04:01:43 pm

I couldn't find a gifset featuring the Doctor's passionate speech about forgiveness during this week's Doctor Who, so just pretend I've posted it here!

Great post BTW! Glad Digi is back, can't believe it's been a year, and it perfectly summarises what exasperates me with the internet. Everyone goes for the nuclear option with everything it seems.

I really enjoyed the latest Bond movie, for example, as it was like a modern day Roger Moore entry. Apparently for some people this is the worst crime imaginable!

Could everyone just chill?

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dab88
9/11/2015 08:30:07 pm

here's one https://twitter.com/RadioTimes/status/663717855876247552

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Reversible Sedgewick
10/11/2015 06:34:56 pm

I can only imagine that a "modern day Roger Moore entry" would be somewhat dry, gnarled, and chemically assisted.

And to be fair, from the closing minutes of Moonraker, he's the one who put the image out there. It's not my fault.

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dan de la peche
9/11/2015 05:17:46 pm

Hey! Now I'm home from work, I can finally throw my mucky oar in.

It's been a whole year? Awesome. Keep up the good work, Mr. Biffo, it's good to have you back writing words about games.

I like watching the whole GamerGate thing from afar, because I couldn't give a shit either way, and it's funny watching strangers on the internet get cross over weird stuff. To be honest, I'm never going to watch the film, because it'll be tedious (apart from if they get Scarlet Johansson to do the saucy photos plot arc in which case I'm buying the BluRay), but what will be really entertaining will be the way the whole bullshit debacle ends up spilling over, once again, into the mainstream press. It's like Jeremy Kyle but for people that like playing computer games.

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Super bad Advice
9/11/2015 05:37:38 pm

We're just glad you (and by extension, the ever-excellent and much-loved Digi) decided to come back, feller.

Also: obligatory saccharine-cutting gag - you were going to do an *adult* sitcom? Lllllllllewwwd!!!

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Stewart P Hardie the 52nd
9/11/2015 06:19:24 pm

Great piece by Biffo and many might be surprised to see him come down in some kind of middle ground on the issue. I think the phrase 'unwilling to stop winding up the other side' sums it up perfectly regarding the ongoing GG slanging match. There's a weird level of emotion (from both sides) perpetuating the whole thing that's probably worth studying in itself.

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Happy Digiversary
9/11/2015 06:54:48 pm

Does Mr Biffo celebrate every special occasion by unleashing a cage full of wolverines in his living room? Christmas in the Biffo household must be absolutely terrifying, especially knowing New Year is just days away.

Anyway, I can't believe it's been year already. Welcome back, and long may it continue.

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George bobbins
9/11/2015 08:22:28 pm

I never knew you'd taken grief online. Who hurt you Biffo ?

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dan de la peche
9/11/2015 08:47:49 pm

Google "Board Of Biffo", typical bunch of internet fuckwits getting mad and lashing out in whatever way they can. Biffo's bloody lucky no-one had invented SWATing back then or he'd have been proper fucked.

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George bobbins
9/11/2015 08:57:26 pm

Thanks. Absolutely mental?

Eyebrows360 link
9/11/2015 08:33:56 pm

I'm SO SO HAPPY that it's going well and growing and so on, it's a delight to have you back ^_^

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Kelvin Green link
9/11/2015 09:02:59 pm

Welcome back Biffo. You are the best.

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Mr Biffo
9/11/2015 09:37:43 pm

George/Dan - it's never as simple as all that, alas. I certainly know I didn't help the situation, and there are plenty of people out there who have every right to think I'm an arsehole... but I'm older, wiser, and more chilled these days. It's the past. It's done. But it was a time in my life I have no intention of ever living through again.

Everyone else: cheers so much for the lovely words. I honestly wouldn't still be doing it a year on if you hadn't all been so supportive.

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Alastair
14/11/2015 03:23:01 pm

I'm not even going to bother googling that, I'm just glad Digitiser is back.

No reveal button on the internet, but I'm old enough now to share Mr T's concern about my bins.

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Superbeast 37
9/11/2015 09:51:14 pm

I'm already tarred with the same brush, as are tens of millions of others even though I wasn't involved.

A feminist group (WAM) conducted a study in partnership with Twitter.

They found that only about 0.6% of GG related accounts were harassers.

So 99.4% of Gamergaters were innocent and they themselves only represent a tiny minority of gamers.

So as a neutral I got smeared by the actions of what? 0.001% of gamers? Even that microscopic number have never been identified so we don't know if they are third party agitators or false flags.

I may be neutral, but with ad block and boycotting I will never stop punishing or being prepared to punish those that smeared me.

Given the stats it ain't the GG people that smeared me as they were arguably just as much victims as I am. So it ain't them I'm blaming.

I'm not involved with GG v SJW's. That ain't my fight.

My fight is my own fight between myself and the unethical press who smeared me, my friends and my hobby. I will not visit their sites (I don't therefore really need ad block) and I will not purchase the products of any person or company in league with them. Simple as that. My bookmarks list in Chrome is about half the length it used to be!

But anyhow long before GG I knew the gaming press was a total cesspit. That's why I read Digitiser 1.0 all those years ago. It shouldn't have taken the past years drama for me to boycott the mainstream press. I was just lazy.

I pledge to be a more responsible consumer in future. I hope small independent sites like this and the more trustworthy YouTube channels can help me do that.

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Keith
9/11/2015 09:53:08 pm

This site has become one of the four tabs that I make a point of reading daily, and is the best place for grown up but not po-faced games journalism since digitiser.

Regarding GamerGate, it's hard to describe exactly, but I feel that it's disproportionate to what it should be; the actual thrust of the conflict has been lost in a surge for people who are disinterested to state their position, which has led to a lot of people on both sides who aren't really involved, but know where their own moral compass should put them, to add their voice to it.

I can't help but seek to distance myself from any of it; i lean towards being an ultra PC lefty, but i kind of think of this more as a thing of, games are not a tiny subculture, and I kind of stridently step away from politicising my love of games. Games are what I get lost in in a darkened room. There are some reviewers I trust, Mr Biffo chief among them, and some games that I'm so excited about the possibility of that I will buy them unless they get dreadful reviews across the board.
Add to that that while games writing is interesting to me, ultimately games reviews are unique in that the reviewer by definition doesn't experience it truly as a player does.
I just want my games to be worlds I escape in. Just knowing that others play through the same story breaks the magic a bit. Waffling a bit as I'm flued up, but the point is, I think, that all the peripheral shit masks that playing games can be a transcendent experience. Or something.

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Picston Shotle
9/11/2015 09:59:42 pm

From the title of his article I thought this was a Fallout 4 review.

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Dr Kank
9/11/2015 10:20:56 pm

Regarding Gamergate, I just kind of thought it was a bit off when the games journalists starting saying that gamers were badly dressed losers who should just go away and die somewhere to make way for the new audience of people who are better. And then when you express any kind of dissent against this view you hear the gates of hell clanging shut behind you and notice all the guns on every side taking aim...

So naturally you seek solidarity with people caught up in the same situation, which is fine, until a handful of very vocal gobshites start going about shills and imposters and concern trolls, pretty much ruling out any hope of a peaceful solution in favour of the Burn It All Down strategy.

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Granthon W
10/11/2015 12:15:19 am

Whenever the words "gamer" and "gate" are mentioned in proximity, I choke and then start vomiting hard. Why would you make a film out of this, Biffo? Why?

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LeighDappa
10/11/2015 01:32:26 am

Thank you for the KERR-RAAZY Record Album Photos Articles and the 'Digitiser 2000' T-Shirt and Free Sticker and the drawing on the Envelope/Package.

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PS1Snake
10/11/2015 02:26:54 am

Yo Biffo, been reading Digitiser2000 for a while and it is one of the few sites on the web that still makes me laugh.

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Euphemia
10/11/2015 02:27:13 am

A year eh? Well it's been right chuffing nice to have it back.. Takes a lot to make and stay on my favourites list, so well done sir. 7.9/10's all round.

I do think that a call for no drama on the Internet is like asking for a wank in a blowjob factory, but fair play to you for saying it.

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Mr Biffo
10/11/2015 10:55:58 am

Oh, I know. I'm a naive idealist, what can I say?

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Barrie Ellis link
10/11/2015 08:42:32 am

Too many stressed people, bobbing about in a Tsunami of voices, wanting to be heard. Not enough diplomats. Not enough perspective. Good that you're smarter and back, Biffo old boy.

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Sean
10/11/2015 09:03:36 am

Years: 1
Reveal-os: 0
Sadness: 134.95 (Infinite)

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Mike Jones
10/11/2015 09:22:02 am

To be fair, it's going to be difficult to top the real Turner the Worm being sick...

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Frank Chickens
10/11/2015 10:39:53 am

The whole GG v SJW gives the impression of two bald men fighting over a comb. My view is that it doesn't affect a lot of gamers because I doubt they have even heard of all these shenanigans and a niche film isn't going to change that.

I just want to play games and am not bothered if the lead character is male or female as long as the game is fun to play.

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ALex Rogan
10/11/2015 01:22:04 pm

So, don't do anything. Because people will only bully you for it. Got it.

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Yuuichi Trapspringer link
10/11/2015 02:42:42 pm

Did what initially happened to Zoe Quinn go over the top? Probably, but it really exposed a great deal of corruption in games journalism, and the massive coverup of the issue caused the Streisand Effect that made a situation that might have been joked about and faded away in a week or two become a huge mess that has consumed gaming culture for over a year. The coverup and mass deletions of threads on sites like 4chan, reddit, and the coordinated media blitz of rival publications all pushing different versions of the same article on the same day all in support of Quinn caused this mess.

Now a year later, we have professional victims like Quinn and Wu who have put out no work yet earn thousands a dollars a month in Patreon Victimbux (Quinn makes about 4k a month and Wu raking in almost $2800 a month) just for periodically riling up the masses so they can cry on twitter and shore up their bank accounts. When Sarkesian and Quinn addressed the UN, they pretty much stated that even disagreeing with them was equal to harassment....

Seriously...

If you have a problem with anything they say online and express your disagreement with them, the only reason you are doing so in their eyes is harassment because they are women and you are a misogynist.

Any threats made to the professional victims get broadcast from the rooftops to bring in more Victimbux, but attacks on gamergate supporters go completely ignored by the media.

The Gamergate in DC meetup? Shut down by bomb threat.
The Society of Professional Journalism Airplay event? Shut down by bomb threat.
Gamergate people get threatened all the time, doxxed all the time, but it only matters if you are on the anti side.

Michael Koretsky stated after the Airplay event that the actual problems and threats are from third party trolls that want to rile up both sides. The Gamergate side agrees with this, but anything against the antis is always blamed on Gamergate.

I don't know if you reddit, but if you go to the hub of gamergate that exists on reddit, /r/kotakuinaction have a look around and see if you can find any harassment of anyone on there. You won't find any harassment that is approved of by the community of 54000 people as of yesterday, Yet we are constantly demonized as being worse than ISIS. All for liking video games and wanting the media that covers the medium not to give preferential treatment to people they are sleeping with, good friends, and people they financially support.Oor at the very least, explaining your conflict of interest on the matter in your article. This is a industry that makes more money than Hollywood now we deserve better journalism.

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Suspect
10/11/2015 02:53:26 pm

SIMON'S ALIVE!

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dan de la peche
10/11/2015 05:06:33 pm

Ah, there we are! If you build it, they will come.

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Col. Asdasd
10/11/2015 06:44:24 pm

So death threats = probably over the top. Probably.

Glad we got that cleared up.

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Yuuichi Trapspringer
11/11/2015 04:34:16 am

Can you find any evidence that anyone who supported gamergate sent those death threats and not a troll? People have been trying to prove it for a year and have completely failed. Also, when you publicize that you are getting threats, you get more threats. That is the exact opposite of what law enforcement tells you to do. Also for all the threats. Why has nobody been prosecuted or even arrested about them?

I will tell you why, being a professional victim brings in the Patreon cheese.

Brianna Wu was even proven to be sending herself threats on steam to try and drum up controversy for her Revolution 60 game that was supposed to finally show up on steam last month, but instead she spends her entire time on twitter and raking in close to $3000 a month while producing zero work.

Quinn rakes in close to $4000 a month for making a text game using glorified html that is a free download on steam due to Patreon Victimbux.

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Superbeast 37
11/11/2015 10:15:40 am

As I mentioned earlier, when the feminist group WAM teamed up with Twitter and analysed it, they found only 0.6% of GG people were involved in harassment and remember that even then, "harassment" to these people means "someone disagreed with me"!

I can't think of any other group of people that it would be acceptable to smear and incite such hated against based on the actions of 0.6 percent.

Gamers are fair game it seems.

The real mystery is why people like Biffo and many posters here formed opinions based on what they heard rather than trying to research and find out what was really going on.

I don't form judgments against any group without researching myself. All though my default position is always neutral and I know there are good people in any group. My first course of action is to find out the percentages.

chris
11/11/2015 11:03:03 am

So disregard the harassment stuff if you want, and then we're left with people like you, whining endlessly about "smear" pieces that, in a round-about way, make the the perfectly reasonable argument that the gaming press shouldn't make the movie-going equivalent of film critics making IMDB message-board idiots their primary audience.

the huge reaction to sarkessian, and all supporters (which is the ONLY reason quinn was on anyone's radar, remember), daring to look at gaming from a cultural perspective, is just a microcosm of why gamers like this are not worth engaging, because they CANNOT engage, they can only attack or dismiss.

gaming having a healthy degree of cultural criticism a NECESSARY step for it to be criticised at all. gaming is far too big and great for us to just talk about it like we're reviewing blenders. i don't know what everyone is so scared of.

Superbeast 37
11/11/2015 04:42:04 pm

@Chris - you are guilty of exactly the sort of inflammatory behaviour that I am criticising. A post based on multiple fallacies and misinterpretations. This does not help anyone.

Let's break it down:

"so disregard the harassment stuff" – Said who? You just invented that position. That is a strawman fallacy. Who has said that harassment (real harassment, not "criticism") is Ok and should be dismissed? Stating that "criticism is not harassment" is not dismissing the real instances of harassment. Saying that innocent people shouldn't be smeared for a crime does not dismiss the crime itself. Even pointing out false flag attacks and cry wolf incidents does not dismiss the real instances of a crime that are proven to have occurred.

"whining endless about smear pieces" - What do you mean by "whining"? That has certain negative connotations. Do you think innocent people who are smeared have a right to complain or not? Try not to use the fallacy of relative privation when you answer that. You are in danger of being the one disregarding victims here…

"Huge reaction against Sarkeesian" - again clarify this? So what? If a public figure makes loud public statements criticising an industry larger than Hollywood, those with an opposing view have every right to make public rebuttals and there will be a lot of them. Again do not strawman that into "so you are saying it is ok to send threats". I am saying that if you make a public statement about a large issue, you can expect an extremely large number of rebuttals and those people have every right to criticise your opinion.

"Daring to look at gaming from a cultural perspective" - I've not seen any complaints about the right to make cultural criticism. Criticising an argument is not the same as criticising the individual’s right to make the argument.

Your final paragraph is a giant strawman in itself. Free speech advocates are happy for anything to be criticised, I don't see people wishing to silence criticism. Rather they are exercising and defending their right to pick apart and highlight flawed arguments and not be smeared or strawmanned for doing so. You are making an error by conflating the two.

Now yes some people have sent threats. No one outside of those that sent the threats condone them from what I can tell. In fact, I've seen the threats repeatedly condemned. As WAM demonstrated, those people sending threats are (a) a small percentage and (b) of no proven allegiance and motives. That is the information that I as a neutral have to go on. Using all sorts of tricks and fallacies won’t win me over.

chris
11/11/2015 05:23:19 pm

@superbeast 37
i think you're strawmanning me in thinking that i am strawmanning :)

""so disregard the harassment stuff" – Said who? You just invented that position. That is a strawman fallacy. Who has said that harassment (real harassment, not "criticism") is Ok and should be dismissed?"

why would i possibly mean that, when you consider my stance? my point is, you can take the discussion away from the harassers and be left with a core argument from 'gamergate' that is in bad faith. obviously harassment is wrong and i condemn it, but i feel it is impossible to discuss, as gg is constantly trying to prove that harassment is exaggerated, or not done in their name, as you have done here. so i roll over: if you want to argue that harassment is not the movement, then let's discuss what is!

the arguments against sarkessian were almost all in bad faith. they're not interested in discussing the points, they're interested in discrediting her, or shutting her down. fundamentally, her criticism is of a sound base; games are not infallible and it seems obvious to me that AAA plot-led games have had a big problem with portraying, and catering to women.

i have seen people make reasonable arguments against some of the specifics of anita's videos (i don't agree with her about ICO, for example), but i think you'll struggle to find them from within this movement. my view is anecdotal, obviously, but i think it's a fair position. GG associates with Milo Yiannopoulos, and CH Sommers, so if it's a right-wing reactionary movement, why engage with cultural criticism at all? surely there's no debate to be had if you're at polar opposites of the argument?

one of the most damning things of this whole affair is that it took death threats and international coverage before the gaming press decided to take a stance on this whole affair. it pains me that this huge industry has such a poor standard of criticism. i can open any newspaper arts section and see cultural criticism in reviews of mainstream films, yet in games the reaction to the same is "KEEP YOUR POLITICS OUT!! GAMES ARE ABOUT FUN!!"

Why am I actually commenting on this mess?
11/11/2015 06:48:47 pm

Chris, I think you're right that games are not exempt from criticism. For decades we wanted games to be taken seriously as a medium. We finally get it, and this happens. I will say admit I'm not really that impressed with TvsW (the ideas are worth thinking about, but the examples can be flawed) but there's no reason that criticism on the medium shouldn't exist.

But to see it from another perspective (and I think it's far more about than this journalistic ethics, because games journalism has basically never had those), it seems to me that part of the problem here is that particularly for many who grew up in the 80s and 90s, gaming has only just almost achieved a status as being culturally accepted after decades of demonisation, and this just hands those who went after games for violence a new argument to go after them with. Basically this seems to me to be coming from a place of insecurity and fear of backsliding, this time with the push driven by the same media who staunchly refused to even consider the notion that games could have been problematic in terms of violence (not that I'm saying GTA isn't fun, because it is).

Long story short, I do hope that all the fuss isn't making gaming look even more hostile to underrepresented demographics, though outlets like the Graun refusing to just let this whole mess slide out of our collective memory is not going to help. I think I see more about this whole mess on there than on most gaming sites...

Why am I even commenting on this mess?
11/11/2015 06:54:31 pm

And for the record, I'm not defending harassers by suggesting that perspective above. People just shouldn't be sending hate mail period.

Superbeast 37
11/11/2015 07:43:56 pm

@Chris - Oh dear... As a neutral I can say that you are losing the battle to win me over because of the tactics you are using.

“you can take the discussion away from the harassers and be left with a core argument from 'gamergate' that is in bad faith.”

Evidence required. That is your opinion. I’m a neutral. You need to demonstrate it is in bad faith, not just tell me it is. I’ve seen some of the arguments GG’ers put forward and they have some good fully cited and demonstrated evidence of some seriously unethical practices and misrepresentations of products.You need to raise your game to compete with them there mate.

“as gg is constantly trying to prove that harassment is exaggerated, or not done in their name, as you have done here. so i roll over: if you want to argue that harassment is not the movement, then let's discuss what is!”

So not content with misrepresenting GG, you are now misrepresenting me? I did not try to prove anything. I repeated statistics that a feminist group produced whilst working in partnership with Twitter. GG have already presented the WAM stats. They don’t have to prove anything. You have to prove your case but all you have offered so far is unsubstantiated opinion.

At the moment the statistics demonstrate to me that GG are perfectly entitled to talk about corruption and nepotism without having to constantly defend accusations of harassment. The stats demonstrate that they aren't about harassment. You have shown me nothing to prove otherwise.

“the arguments against sarkessian were almost all in bad faith. they're not interested in discussing the points, they're interested in discrediting her, or shutting her down”

Again you need to demonstrate this. I do not trust anyone at face value. I have seen videos clinically pick her arguments apart with solid citations. I’ve seen some duff arguments but they were a small minority from dumb kids.

"GG associates with Milo Yiannopoulos, and CH Sommers, so if it's a right-wing reactionary movement"

Milo states he is right wing, Sommers states she is a Democrat. Political surveys of GG'ers have them clustered in the left wing libertarian box. You have failed to demonstrate to me that they are right wing reactionaries. In fact it almost looks like an attempted smear to me....

"seems obvious to me"

That again is another little debating trick. It is pretty much a form of argumentum ad populum - "it is obvious", "everyone knows" etc. Doesn't work on me. You need to demonstrate it. All phrases like that do is lead me to believe that you are vulnerable to confirmation bias.

So as a neutral I can look at the facts independent of the dubious opinions of others:

The AAA games market is a highly competitive free market that has developed over decades to cater to a large audience. The market will produce what people are willing to buy. If you bring money to the table, then products will cater to your desires. We see that demonstrated in the diverse array of genres and products that cater to all tastes (all tastes backed by enough buyers to support them).

We have seen a large number of studio closures and redundancies over the past five years. If there was a large untapped market, rational developers would have catered to it rather than lose their jobs/homes.

You need to convince me as a neutral that the industry is not catering to a demographic (at all or very well) that would actually back it up with real hard cash. I am being asked to believe that developers are so misogynistic that they would rather go bust than better cater to a female audience. Really?!

GG'ers have shown me the gender ratio of Mass Effect players, the sales figures for Sunset, the percentage of females on the Wii U store etc in order to demonstrate that females are not a sizeable AAA market and that this explains why so many products cater to a male demographic.

I've seen figures for some genres like the Sims or WoW that do cater to women. Also the hidden object picture games, mobile puzzle games etc. But in other genres that people like Sarkeesian have attacked, I've struggled to find evidence to support her/anti-GG's theory of an untapped and ignored market.

As someone with an economics background, I can see demonstrated that in genres where women have an interest, the market has indeed catered to them. I therefore see no evidence to support the position that many of the AAA genres have a problem catering to women. It seems more to be a problem of females not being interested when developers would very much like them to be....

chris
12/11/2015 11:00:37 am

@Why am I actually commenting on this mess? (username!)
totally agree with you. i get why some gamers are protective, i just think it's increasingly misguided, and detrimental to the hobby. gaming is more than them (us?), now. we overreacted to the criticisms of violent videogames, and we're overreacting now. in some parallel universe, we've had some introspection about both debates and desired better from our hobby.

@Superbeast 37
i'm not here to convince you (and you sure don't seem like a 'neutral'), and frankly i don't believe you're here to engage. is there also a logical fallacy for when your opponent immediately claims you're using logical fallacies, and how that shows they don't have much to add? :)

you're going hard on the harassment aspect, totally misunderstanding my argument for the third time. you want to make the not-unreasonable argument that most 'gamergate' people don't engage in abuse, so i concede that point! i've never argued against it, and i have no interested in that side of the debate. i want to talk about why gamers have a problem with cultural critique.

the 'dismantling arguments' i have seen on youtube and the like are typically done by hobbyists with no real understanding of the purpose of cultural critique. there was a whole series of arguments about how sarkessian was "not a gamer" like that has ANYTHING to do with her ability to observe tropes in media. if there's someone intelligently debating her, then they are being drowned out by the rafts of idiots in every "related-video" to her series. gamergate need to clean house if they want a proper debate.

you're now on to doing into the whole debate about how an industry almost exclusively marketed toward men has achieved an AAA market of mostly men. interesting!

however even if we disregard that, games do not have to be played for or designed for women to be subjected to cultural critique. your fundamental misunderstanding of what she is doing, and why she is doing it, is a microcosm of how so many gamers are not able to debate this.

go see how other medias (film, tv, literature, music, etc) extol and respond to cultural criticism, and try to come up with reasons why gaming is so different. we should be shocked (and ashamed) that there isn't MORE 'politics' in mainstream games criticism.

Superbeast 37
12/11/2015 11:27:03 am

@Chris - you keep putting forward opinions without supporting evidence.

You also keep making statements that are contradicted by extremely strong evidence such as the WAM report or elementary economics 101.

When you do make statements I Google for evidence and find that you were either misinformed or deliberately trying to mislead me.

Ironically that is what GG tell me that anti GG are doing - trying to mislead people and smear them.

When I point all this out you infer that I am GG.

This is the problem I have with the whole thing. One side is throwing evidence at me.

The other side is lying to my face, making sweeping generalisations and trying to prevent me from seeing the evidence. If I attempt to see and discuss that evidence they attempt to tag me as a member of the other side and smear me.

I can draw conclusions as to who the good guys and bad guys are without joining a side. Any side that says "we won't let you hear the other side" loses some of my trust before I even start looking at the evidence.

Effervescing Elephant
10/11/2015 09:10:53 pm

Used to love Teletext Digi and thought it was too wonderful and mad to go quietly into the night, When I found Digitiser2000 (via a Charlie Brooker tweet I think) I was as happy as a boy with a brand new Whizzer and Chips annual. I pop by every day now for a chortle, Thanks Mr Biffo for making a middle-aged man giggle in a most undignified way on the train to work.

Reply
George
10/11/2015 11:25:38 pm

Happy birthday Digi2k! its official: Biffo, you died online but rose again which means you are basically e-Jesus.

Reply
Bruce Flagpole
11/11/2015 02:28:57 pm

Two things in this i can't believe.

One, it's been a year already? Congrats Mr B, keep up the good work!

Two, 'gamergate' is actually a 'side' in this nonsense and people call themselves that? I just assumed the whole thing was called 'gamergate' in the way it's seemingly clever to stick 'gate' on the end of anything referencing an incident to make it sound like a big drama.

Reply
Shish
12/11/2015 06:15:56 pm

<3

Reply
Bananasthemonkey
13/11/2015 07:17:56 pm

Ok, sorry to lower the tone, but please all just f*ck off with the mysoginist gamergate shit fountain. Dear f*cking God. Life is just too f*cking short. Apologies Biffo my dear, but I may have had a couple of ales.

Reply



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