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THE PUNCH HEARD AROUND THE WORLD - by Mr Biffo

24/1/2017

81 Comments

 
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I thought long and hard about whether to write about this.

I mean, aside from anything else I'm already aware that Digi2000 has been a bit light on actual games content recently.... albeit with good reason; there's bugger all going on this month, games-wise, apart from the release of Resident Evil VII. I'll get to that in due course.

Nonetheless, I've not hidden away from sharing things on this site which matter to me, and I don't want to feel too scared to speak up - for fear of being damned by those whose aims and beliefs I support - when I feel strongly about an issue. If you're a regular reader you'll know I tend to wear my heart on my sleeve, and... last week something happened which is going to affect us all one way or another. You don't need me to state what it was.

I managed to catch the swearing in of President Trump on Friday evening, just before I headed into London to see Stewart Lee do a stand-up show - a more liberal bubble you couldn't hope for.

I left the house with a knot in my stomach, like something really, really bad had happened. You know that scene in Star Wars, where Ben Kenobi has to have a bit of a sit-down after Alderaan gets blown-up? Yeah, well... that was me on Friday evening. I couldn't put my finger on it, but it felt like a dark shadow had crossed the sun. If I'd been writing that moment in a screenplay I'd have added thunder in the stage directions.

I woke on Saturday feeling bleak, and swiftly my Twitter feed just made me feel worse. It was pretty much given over to one thing and one thing only: the American neo-Nazi Richard Spencer getting punched in the face live on the news.

Almost without exception, everyone on there was celebrating. That knot in my gut tightened. 

​The world had gone mental.
CATHARSIS COME HOME
I get the catharsis of seeing someone you hate getting punched.

If someone cut me up in the car, and then crashed immediately into a lamppost, my immediate reaction would probably be to whoop with glee. 

I mean, I get that, after the swearing in of Trump, a lot of us needed some sort of release, a feeling that all wasn't lost. That we're not helpless. The punch heard around the world represented something more  - a literal and metaphorical bloody nose... but still I couldn't enjoy it. Seeing those tweets was like watching a crowd baying for blood, and - neo-Nazi or not - it was ugly.

More than that; it was surreal. I had the nagging sense that some people were enjoying the primal violence of it, while justifying it to themselves as a political necessity.

I know that, for the most part, the people I follow on Twitter are more on the liberal side. There are some, I know, who lean the other way - and I respect their opinions. None of them are out-and-out white supremacists, as far as I know, and I'm big enough to accept that we're not always going to agree. 


Generally speaking, on Saturday morning my Twitter feed was given over to memes and cheers dedicated to the brave, anonymous, balaclava-wearing anti-Trump demonstrator who ran up to Richard Spencer and lamped him in the face.

I felt sick upon seeing the clip shared again and again on Twitter. And I mean... genuinely nauseous. As it wore on and I saw increasing numbers of people I respect joining in the chorus, and I actually felt tearful. I spent the entire day fighting the urge to cry.

It just felt insane to me, like the entire world had lost its mind. Here we are with Trump and his alt-right cronies in the White House, an actual neo-Nazi being given time on American news, and everyone on Twitter - or so it felt to me - baying for blood.

I couldn't not say anything. I needed a release of my own... And because I'm an idiot I tweeted that I didn't think violence was the solution. Which, ironically, led to Twitter punching me in the face. Metaphorically speaking. Well, sort of. Some people were pleasant and respectful in agreeing to disagree with me. Some less so.

Regardless, it became pretty apparent that - as far as my Twitter goes - I was in a minority of one. Well, for the most part. I, like the few other people in the social mediasphere who dared to share this opinion publicly, was damned for colluding with the alt-right through what became labelled as lily-livered inaction, like we were part of the British establishment in the 1930s.
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LET'S TWIST AGAIN!
It was frustrating. My words got twisted, and I felt things were being read into my statement that I hadn't intended or meant.

That I wanted to "talk" with the Nazis, rather than condemn them.

​That I wanted to listen and hear their point of view.

That this was akin to collaborating with them, and that somehow it was dangerously weak to damn the bravely anonymous punching of that white supremacist with the terrible pre-war German haircut.

Nazis must be punched! It's the only way to stop them! And if you don't want to stop them, then... well... MAYBE YOU'RE THE REAL NAZI, HERR BIFFO! More blood! More punching! S'exciting... sexciting. SEXXXXX!

When I mentioned Martin Luther King or Gandhi it was countered by reminding me that they were assassinated.

Which was true, I said, but also their deaths at the hands of, y'know, extremists who opposed them probably galvanised their supporters (you know: like how, say, neo-Nazis might rally behind their punched leader...). Either way, assassination or not, their non-violent campaigns still led to enormous social change.

Yeah... but the situation we're facing now is way worse than what MLK had to deal with, I was told!

Well... er... not sure it is... whatever you may think of Trump's views on race. Segregation was a pretty big deal, and saying that things are worse now feels like an overstatement - and like peering at the world through a pinhole. Or from the vantage point of - yes - an echo chamber where all we hear are the same arguments and fears echoing back at us, over and over and over. 

What about Britain's own Battle of Cable Street in the 1930s I was asked? If all those people hadn't stood up to the British Union of Fascists, and had running street fights with them, then the Nazis would probably be in power now!

Admittedly, history records that Cable Street drew a line in the sand... but there's an academic school of reasoning which suggests that - while the actions of many were brave and principled - it actually gathered new members to the otherwise previously irrelevant BUF, gave them an unwarranted notoriety, and lead to an increase in anti-semiticism in the East End of London.

So... y'know.

POLITICS OF FEAR
And this is precisely my fear over that punch. Or, rather, it's my fear that it would only strengthen their numbers should there be even more violence against white supremacists. Who are - it can't be stated enough - a minority in the USA. Advocating more violence as the only solution now, as some were?

That's just beyond the pale. Also: a real bad idea.

At the Stewart Lee gig, he cracked a joke about Brexit - later repeated with Brexit switched out for Trump - saying "Not everyone who voted for Brexit was a racist... no, some of them were c@nts too". It was funny... and I think Lee is smart enough to have been overstating it for comic effect.  

Nevertheless, plenty genuinely believe that. It's getting boring hearing it over and over, but labelling everyone who voted for Trump as a white supremacist, or a racist, is simply not true. More dangerously, it's failing to learn from why he got voted into power.

The vlogger Casey Neistat shot a brief video at the inauguration, where he spoke with Trump supporters and protestors alike. None of them seemed particularly mad, or unpleasant. Heck, he even spoke with a black guy who voted for Trump. It's still a microcosm, but worth a watch I think, as it's very balanced.

Michael Moore does tend to grate on me a bit, but his Trumpland stand-up show - if you can find it - is also very balanced and respectful.

FAMILY BUSINESS
I think the one thing that saves me from being deafened by the echo chamber is my family. Almost all of them voted for Brexit, and - amazingly - they're not all racists.

Judging from their Facebook accounts at the weekend, most of them either didn't understand the Women's 
March, or weren't even aware of it. Few of them even commented on Trump's election.

They're not concerned with the stuff you and I get on our high horse about. They want to pay the bills, cook dinner for the kids, have enough money for a holiday once a year - and if somebody charismatic comes along and says "I am going to make your life better!" their ears prick up. Everything else is just static.
​
If we don't pay attention to the real reasons Trump got in, and why the majority in this country voted for Brexit - the everyday concerns of the majority, the average small-town American or British citizen - people who don't deserve to be there are going to cling to power forever.

If we're simply going to fight with our guts, rather than our minds... if all we're going to do it shout people down who are trying to say "Hey, people of the same political leaning as me! I don't think this is how we're really going to win!" and label them as Nazis (the comedienne Sarah Silverman and Nick Spencer, who writes the Captain America comic for Marvel, got it far worse than I did)... then we're screwed.

​Every last one of us. 

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PUNCH BACK
So, back to that punch.

My point - which I accept might be wrong, and perhaps didn't have the space on Twitter to adequately convey - is as follows:
  1. I just felt ill that there was even a neo-Nazi being interviewed in the first place.
  2. The guy who punched him didn't seem to me to be a hero; he was wearing a balaclava, like many of the "demonstrators" (actually, let's call them what they were - opportunist rioters) on the news who were shown chucking stuff through shop windows. He came across to me like a thug - and if I'm thinking that he looked like the thug in that situation, rather than - y'know - the white supremacist who got punched, imagine what white supremacists must think. 
  3. Punching him in the face, on the news, and then running away doesn't weaken Richard Spencer -  it makes him appear a martyr. It gives people something to rally around, and lets him play the victim. 
  4. It makes those of us who oppose fascism and nationalism look irrational. It sinks us to their level. Weren't we all appalled when people got attacked at Trump rallies? Didn't we think that was indicative of the sort of animalistic thug who voted Trump? Why is it better when we do it? Oh. Yeah. Because they're NAZIS, and we have the moral high ground, duh. 
  5. History has proven that non-violent protest works.
  6. Non-violent protest is not the same thing as doing nothing. It's not the same as trying to have empathy with those you oppose. It's not about listening. It's not about colluding. In fact, it's about being as effectively disruptive, and as big a pain in the arse as possible, to those you oppose, without - y'know - actually having to take up arms - or fists - in a way that makes them stronger.
  7. I'm not saying we should never fight! Do I think it would've been better if Winston Churchill invited Mr Hitler over for a cup of tea to ask what was making him so angry? Don't be stupid.

In fact, the last point was proved with the Women's March later that same day; a gathering of millions of women (and plenty of men), globally, in an entirely peaceful protest. That - for me - is exactly what I was talking about, and far more effective than the punch that everyone seemed to be celebrating. The momentum of that movement needs to be maintained. Sooner or later, those in power will not be able to ignore it. The political pressure exerted by a movement of that size cannot be understated. We shouldn't be fighting over whether we should have a right to punch Nazis. We should be fighting to have those with such extremist views be locked up for good.

I try to read what I can, but I accept that I'm not an expert in history or politics. That said, I do think I'm a pretty good judge of what makes people tick, and most of what I think, what I feel, comes from the gut. 

So I get why it might feel good at first, but I guarantee that punching Nazis and nationalists in the face is not going to prove a long-term solution. By the same token, labelling those who are on the same side as you as "Nazi sympathisers" is hardly going to rally more moderate people to your cause either. More likely, all you're going to do is shut them up and reinforce that echo chamber so the only views you ever listen to are your own.

Those of us who questioned the punch weren't being weak, or cowardly, or overly empathic, or playing into the Nazis' hands. It's not naive. It's trying to say what we think is the right course of action - what will be most effective - in countering this terrifying wave of nationalism which is spreading throughout the world.

It's saying that sometimes we have to ignore what feels good, and do what's actually right; We stand up to it. We deny it. We unite against it, and we show that we're stronger than it is.
FROM THE ARCHIVE:
THE MOST RACIST DUKES OF HAZZARD TOYS EVER​
WILL YOU PRESS REVEAL SO THAT PINGU CAN CONGRATULATE THESE AMERICAN POLITICIANS FOR HAVING STUPID NAMES?
​
YOU BE THE DETECTIVE: CAN YOU WORK OUT WHO MURDERED UBISOFT BOSS YVES GUILLEMOT?


81 Comments
sanger
24/1/2017 03:16:49 pm

Hey, I agree 100% Biffo. Thing is I think the punch offended the right who are offended by such things, but others on the right probably saw it as the left finally pulling up their bootstraps etc. Similarly, I think people like us were aghast at the lout's actions, but some on the left probably took an interest in politics for the first time in years.

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Da5e
24/1/2017 03:19:41 pm

Only good fash is a punched fash. This is a well-written and thoughtful article, as are all of yours, Biffo - but Nazis should be punched. Punched until your fists tire, and then punched some more.

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John
31/1/2017 02:50:32 pm

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Dve
31/1/2017 02:52:54 pm

Good luck with that, having seen the majority of the leftie thugs doing this....they arnt half gonna be in a world of hurt when next time the right pull guns and knifes out......and believe me faced with violent face covered leftie thugs id quite happily watch them get wasted.

Scott C
24/1/2017 03:22:51 pm

I too fear this Nationalistic uprising. The Scottish National Party make my mind boggle the most; they are nationalists that are somehow anti-UK, but pro-EU and also somehow perceived as the "good guys". They wield a hypocritical/conflicting philosophy yet so many of the Scottish people seem to buy their false promises, as the (fully devolved into Scottish hands since 1999) NHS and education system crumbles around them, and they steer the country towards (independent) economic ruin (price of oil, anyone?). I've had people question why I am talking about nationalism and small-town, narrow-mindedness in reference to the SNP, "but the SNP are the good guys aren't they?", and I have to point out what the initials SNP actually stand for... and what they have done to Scotland in pursuit of their single, divisive mission. But, of course I would say that as a biased, foreign Englishman living in Scotland... people don't understand that they are just being exploited.

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Panda
24/1/2017 09:11:18 pm

Do you honestly regard nationalism and national socialism as the same thing?

I can agree on you about many of the things the SNP and its supporters have managed to get wrong but they've demonstrated a lot more compassion about many humanitarian matters, global or otherwise, than most of their opponents. To try and paint that as anything close to fascism rather than just potentially misguided in its ideals or methods is wrong.

Yeah, as a young Scotsman who believes in communicating my views and values in a sober, rational way, it annoys me how sanctimonious a lot of idealistic left wing young people in Scotland can get when it comes to absolutely insisting at all turns how much more Scotland welcomes refugees compared to the rest of the UK etc. But at least the SNP has appealed to a less selfish idealism than we've seen in a lot of the big decisions we've seen democracy make in the last year. Biffo wouldn't have intended it as elitist but I think he is spot on about the overwhelming number of people who are politically and economically misinformed and whose hitherto unused votes have overturned the status quo in quite shocking ways just out of the promise that it'll personally get them something they want. As someone who tries not to rely much on others for his wellbeing, that's not how I think politics should work.

The fact that you just need to look at a map shaped infographic to see how painfully distinct Scotland Is in relation to the rest of the UK in terms of what it wants and what it values is almost case enough for independence. Yeah, self-serving might be an apt description for the SNP as well, but no more so than the rest of the 'I want my country back' brexit movement. Anyway, I'm sure the NHS and education system have sorely missed the likes of Hunt and Gove.

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PabloWatsoni
24/1/2017 10:31:24 pm

Please can you elaborate on your point: "The fact that you just need to look at a map shaped infographic to see how painfully distinct Scotland Is in relation to the rest of the UK in terms of what it wants and what it values" ?

Granthon G
25/1/2017 06:18:00 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics/eu_referendum/results

This one, perhaps?

Granthon G
25/1/2017 06:23:20 pm

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/560/media/images/82868000/png/_82868795_uk-final_con_624.png

Oh, and this one as well, of course.

Panda
26/1/2017 07:25:06 pm

Correct!

Banansthemonkey
24/1/2017 03:29:06 pm

This made my heart sink too. It reminded me of the days of the old punk/hardcore scene in the late '80s and early '90s, when there were regular confrontations with neo-Nazi skinheads and it could sometimes be genuinely scary going out to gigs and such. Specifically:
1) Its all very well sitting behind a screen and cheering vicariously, but a) you are not doing actually the punching yourself; b) you are not going to be punched back.
2) If street violence becomes the arbiter then the neo-Nazis always win in the end, because violence is what they are about and they tend to be better at it.
3) The 'good guys' are also often just bully boy thugs. A lot of the old Anit-Nazi league people (not all, but a lot) were almost as bad as the skins. Many of them were ex-skins with their swastika tattoos blacked out.
Easy to cheer from the sidelines when you know you're not going to get your teeth kicked in, but when it comes down to it its just thugs fighting and it degrades us all.

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PeskyFletch
27/1/2017 05:57:17 pm

Good post.

But you're wrong about me, i'm rock hard.

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Just this gal, you know
24/1/2017 03:30:09 pm

I was undecided on this one, but I think if I was living in the USA right now, I'd be changing my name to NaziFaceyPunch The Third.

Talking to a group of people is all well and good when they're trying to gain power, but this lot are now IN power. They're presenting "alternate facts" instead of actual facts, and insisting that the media report them.

The women's march was simply amazing, but have the nazis talked about it? Have they said how much they feared the repercussions?

No.

But the nazi who got punched is certainly talking about his face. He's talking about how he's fearful of going out. GOOD. Now we have an equal footing for debate and he can understand how he makes others feel. Now we can say, "Stop making us feel like that, and you can stop feeling like that."

Right now, in power in the US, you have a group of people who think my partner's medical care should be taken away and that it's appropriate to electrocute me until I'm not gay any more.

When people say "Oh, I think we should raise/lower taxes" or "We should exit the EU without an exit plan," then you can debate.

When people question my very right to exist, then they get a punch in the face, because they're certainly not taking notice of protests any more. In fact, they're manipulating the media to make them seem insignificant. These are not people who listen to protests.

And if you think these things aren't a big deal, then I'm happy that you currently have your rights afforded to you, and that you don't fear for your very existence. But the rest of us need to start punching faces to make those in power take notice, because they are literal nazis.

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Spanko
24/1/2017 04:18:17 pm

But what Biffer is saying is that those in power will notice that the left are a violent nuisance that need removing. Should it be via extreme means? Why not, clearly they fall back on violence anyway

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Just this gal
24/1/2017 04:24:21 pm

Removing us has already started.

Nazis in power don't get removed by talking to them.

Spanko
24/1/2017 04:56:11 pm

Says who? Why not try typing out full paragraphs instead of would-be sloganeering

Just this gal
24/1/2017 07:13:31 pm

I'll assume you're not trolling...

Let's start with the fact that all mentions of LGBT rights have been removed from the whitehouse website. Trump and Pence have always been firmly opposed to marriage equality. Trump has gone on record to say it's possible he would overturn the marriage equality acts. Pence believes in "conversion therapy" for gay people, which involves electric shock treatment. These are the type of people who introduce "bathroom bills" in North Carolina, which resulted in abuse of women who might just look a bit butch, getting them thrown out of bathrooms when they just want to pee. Trump has already signed an order to get rid of contraceptive healthcare funding, and the affordable care act. This isn't opinion, these are real things that are actually happening and affecting already marginalised people's lives. You probably won't notice because they don't affect you, you're not the target for this stuff.

Removing us started a while ago, with various bills introduced at the state level by the people who are now in power.

Spanko
25/1/2017 07:56:17 am

That's genuinely awful, but why is punching people the answer again?

RichardM
24/1/2017 03:30:25 pm

I somehow missed this punching. (I did notice that you monikered me "poo trolley" on the thank you page: thinking of changing my name by deed poll.) But yeah, you're right. Punching is no remedy to these people, it just glorifies them. They mustn't be ignored, though: rather put in the spotlight so their mask can slip and their reprehensible nature can be truly observed and understood and vilified.

We really are right at the top of the
climb on a weird and scary rollercoaster. I wish Hunter S Thompson was still alive to say something about all this.

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Znidz
24/1/2017 03:30:36 pm

Fascism is an inherently violent ideology.
So punching this bloke is literally the only language he understands.
So it was really more of an "actually, no". Than a punch.
I get it. Violence is distasteful. But so is Fascism.

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Mr howard
24/1/2017 03:30:51 pm

Reminds me if when I was shouted at by liberals for not celebrating when that Thatcher woman died. And speaking up against those that did.

An old woman, however much I disagreed with her, was dead. It was sad.

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Scott C
24/1/2017 04:01:07 pm

Indeed, someone showed me this recently. I'm no Thatcherite, but this is awful: http://www.isthatcherdeadyet.co.uk/

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Length_of_Swordfish
25/1/2017 07:58:11 am

Surely celebrating an old woman's death is a form of peaceful protest? Who is being hurt? Her kangaroo-cock-munching relatives? I absolutely cannot agree that literally anyone dieing is sad, sometimes it's great.

Why did you find it sad?

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PeskyFletch
27/1/2017 06:01:54 pm

Aye, i had a strongly worded disagrreement with a union mate because i wasn't glorying in her death.

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James of the North
24/1/2017 03:37:28 pm

Bugger-all going on? Yakuza 0's out today! Perfect jumping-on point if you're new to the series.

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Nick
24/1/2017 03:43:42 pm

I've always known it. Mr Biffo is an anti Yakuza 0 sympathiser.

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Mr Biffo
24/1/2017 03:44:23 pm

Ah, ta. Just bought it.

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Mr Impatience
24/1/2017 07:52:15 pm

When's the review / full LP?

Wicked Eric
24/1/2017 03:59:57 pm

Punch nazis.

They should not be debated and they shouldn't feel safe to voice their ideas in public. Genocide and ethnic cleansing aren't ideas that you debate the merits of. They should not be part of the public discourse.

Violence can be and is politically useful and it is correct to use it to protect our society against persons who would destroy it.

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Scott C
24/1/2017 04:08:54 pm

The problem is the broadness/interpretation of "destroy society" in this phrase "it is correct to use it to protect our society against persons who would destroy it." By my definition of "society" and civilisation, and under such a rule there would be people out there initiating violence against people like Trump, Sturgeon, Farrage, and quite a few religions, but I don't think that is the right way to go.

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Mr Biffo
24/1/2017 04:09:38 pm

Now... this is what I don't get, and the same thing was happening on Saturday... You're the second person in these comments to say something along the lines of "Nazis should not be debated". Where have I said that they should?

I thought I'd gone to great pains in the article to stress the opposite - that they should be stopped. I just think that stopping them violently, or putting our future in the hands of opportunist thugs, is the wrong way to go about it, and will backfire.

It rather feels like you've chosen to interpret the article in a certain way without actually absorbing what I'm trying to say. It's kind of fascinating, but also terrifying that you seem to reject debate across the board.

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Mr Biffo
24/1/2017 04:10:38 pm

That was aimed at Wicked Eric, by the way. Still love ya, Eric!

Wicked Eric
24/1/2017 04:20:37 pm

I love you too Biffo, although you are right to be terrified of me.

My comment wasn't really meant as a direct riposte to your article, just an attempt to sum up my own POV as succinctly as possible.

DEAN
24/1/2017 04:01:47 pm

I watched a video you posted late last year about how shaming people for their political views is unhelpful and that a dialogue is necessary if your aim is to be productive. Can't argue with any of that!

The punch you discuss here is an extreme example but the sentiment is rife.
Sadly for some, any excuse for trouble, any opportunity for a soapbox and it's such a turn off... for all, really. I think the upshot for me has been a state of desensitised apathy.

I'm not given to paying much attention to politics, I know it effects me etc. But it's all just so depressing. Wherever you look there's people pretending to be on full trains that have empty seats and old maids taking the moral high ground on internet censorship. YAY!

But yes, I'm with you on this.

I love Stewart Lee! Yes, I'm sure he's sensible enough to have a different personal view from his onstage character.
I met him once (to sign a CD after a gig) and he was very shy and fat... and looked old. But terribly polite.... in that condescending and arrogant Oxbridge way. He was like a Stewart Lee who had let himself go...
No, no... I think he's awesome!

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Drainy the plastic drain cover
24/1/2017 04:22:06 pm

He went to a pub where my mate was celebrating his birthday and he leaned over my friend's chair and patiently listened and occasionally gave a polite nod as my drunk friend prattled on about garbage inches away from his face for about 10 minutes. I've got a lot of time for him anyway because he is so very funny, but that made me think he's probably also a decent chap, albeit to a fault

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Mr Biffo
24/1/2017 04:33:33 pm

I encountered him briefly when I was on One Life Left. He was coming out of the studio as we were going in.

"Alright?" he said.

"Alright?" we all replied.

DEAN
24/1/2017 04:37:54 pm

Yeah, sort of smug thing he'd say!

Nick
24/1/2017 04:19:35 pm

When the face masked thug dressed head to toe in black anonymously punching someone in the face in the street is the anti-fascist I think we’re right to be worried and I agree with your sentiment wholeheartedly.

This isn’t the same as that Swedish grandmother hitting the neo-Nazi with her hand bag, which, was about a petty absurd act reflecting their petty absurd marching, about someone who remembers real Nazi’s showing what respect she thinks their young emulators deserve.

I believe in the power of protest and civil disobedience and have joined in with both when I’ve felt the cause worthy. I don’t care about this man’s hurt pride or bruised cheekbone and I’m not a pacifist but all this act did was make the protester look like an idiot. A cowardly young thug who knows nothing of real protest is playing into the hands of people that want an excuse to fight back (or maybe try to take away the right to protest).

If you disagree with these people, stand up to them. Do it with dignity, pride and face in full view. Show them you’re not scared. Show them you are better.

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Mr Biffo
24/1/2017 04:23:04 pm

Well said, Nick.

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Scott C
24/1/2017 04:25:28 pm

Brainwave moment: Mr Biffo, I wonder if the guy who randomly punched you in the face might have confused you for a Nazi? Were you stretching your arm at the time?

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Mr Biffo
24/1/2017 04:32:46 pm

Now you mention it... I was dressed as Charlie Chaplin...

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Scott C
24/1/2017 10:25:35 pm

Oh, couldn't possibly be that then. Nevermind. Speaking of Charlie Chaplin, I'd never seen him look as angry as he does in that second picture from the top. Grrrr!

Bilbo
24/1/2017 05:17:54 pm

It's like the idiots on the left never want to win another election. First they're unironically channeling McCarthy, now they're advocating violence. LOL

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PeskyFletch
27/1/2017 06:07:35 pm

WWWWHHHHOOOOOSSSSSHHHH!

You are superbeast37 and i claim my 5 pounds

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Super Bad Advice
24/1/2017 05:22:12 pm

The difficulty is what happened seemed to come out of the blue, but probably didn't.

Spencer is a loathsome arsehole - he's openly called for the extermination of black people and makes no effort to hide what he is. Namely someone absolutely dreadful.

We saw some guy run up and punch him. What we don't really know is what drove that guy. He obviously knew who Spencer was, so it's not too big a leap to assume he may well have known people affected by Neo-Nazis and alt-right idiots. Maybe they or someone they know had suffered directly at the hands of the sort of imbecile Spencer eggs on. So while we have the luxury of being able to sit back and analyse, and be concerned about whether Spencer could come over as a victim, for the guy who threw the punch it could have been an unexpected opportunity to show Spencer that his actions do have consequences and that the people affected will not take it lying down - something a lot of alt right types have forgotten, hence their boldness and arrogance - and hence simply a chance that could not pass.

We don't have to applaud the guy who did the punching and say violence is always the answer, because of course it isn't. Of course. But I'm not sure I can condemn him either - and I'm as non-violent as a damp butterfly. If I were someone directly affected by the actions of violence-inciting neo-Nazi arsewits and I saw one of their leaders casually strolling about without a care in the world, not giving 2 hoots as to the pain and suffering they cause (because let's be realistic - this was one punch vs lord knows how much racist, sexist and homophobic violence enabled by Spencer and his ilk), I'd probably punch the guy too. That doesn't mean I'd punch the next guy as well or indeed any other guy ever, or that I applaud fighting and want more, but I can understand why someone would do what he did.

Sometimes, when you've struggled and stood and debated and argued and seen what you stand for and who you love attacked again and again and again, that's absolutely all that's left. We may not be in that place, but others already are - not because they're violent people, but because people who would see violence done to them have forced them there.

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Mr Biffo
24/1/2017 06:56:15 pm

Yeah, that's fair enough - and I get what you're saying. But I think the thing I found more ugly than any punching was the braying mob which followed in its wake. That's what really upset me.

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Kara Van Park
24/1/2017 07:36:50 pm

I wonder if 10+ years of talent shows where you're encouraged to heckle anyone going against popular opinion has given us a generation that think they're living in a pantomime where they're supposed to boo and hiss at the perceived 'baddy' and spit their dummy out whenever they don't get the decision they like.

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Pearls b4 Swine
25/1/2017 09:18:37 am

I wonder if 10+ years of 'news' has sufficiently degraded people's intelligence to the point that they think the results of major political events are in any way comparable to the results of a TV talent show. I wonder if those same people try to distance themselves from the terrible decisions they were fooled into making by feigning an air of indifference?

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ImissDigitiser
24/1/2017 08:14:40 pm

If they're truly so bad, can we not stab them in the face next time instead of a punch? I mean, why not?

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Kara Van Park
24/1/2017 08:30:56 pm

That was my thinking. I've had a few halfwits on Twitter say they wished he was shot. What if was a woman, would rape or murder be permissible? After all they're a Nazi. Fair game apparently.

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ImissDigitiser
24/1/2017 08:47:04 pm

I don't understand why people are not organising Nazi Death Squads right now tbh.

Get off Twitter and right those wrongs you crazy diamonds!

Hugh
24/1/2017 08:30:45 pm

Hi Mr Biffo - I tweeted at you over the weekend and I hope you didn't interpret my tweets as trying to be abusive. This is a very well written piece but ultimately, I still think you’re terribly, terribly wrong.

If you’re going to back the position of “punching the Nazi is wrong”, then you need to offer an alternative option for refuting them, as otherwise you are de facto declaring that their words go ahead without rebuke. And rebuke is what they need to be done - unopposed, Nazism will force its way into public discourse and demand attention. Attention that it will leverage to claim legitimacy. You cannot debate Nazism with Nazis. By doing so, you hold up their ideas as deserving of being critically assessed. They haven’t ever been deserving of anything other than contempt.

To go through your seven point:

1. Agree. The fact that Nazis are appearing on ABC News in soft piece-to-camera interviews is indicative of the need to act to oppose them. Taking the moral high ground and doing nothing is turning away from those who will suffer first at the embolden fists of the far right.
2. If we are to care what white supremacists think, it must only be so insofar that it will give us insight into having their minds changed. What will change the minds of white supremacists given the irrationality of racial prejudice? Anyone that later claims to have been swayed into endorsing Nazi ideologies by seeing a Nazi getting punched this was already well under the sway of Nazism.
3. The white supremacist movement *already* frames themselves as oppressed - hence their false claims of “white genocide” as justification for their hate.
4. Punching a Nazi does not sink you to their level, unless your punching is accompanied by the belief that entire sections of society that don’t correspond with your agenda be exterminated.
5. History has proven that non-violent protest *can* work, but women being blocked from voting, slavery, and a whole swathe of fallen despots didn’t end because of non-violent protest.
6. Non-violence as a method only works when the target of your protest can be shamed into adapting its behaviour in the aftermath of asserting its own violent nature against the protestor. Nazism’s end goal is inherently violent - the extermination of all who do not conform to its tenets - non-violence has no traction on it.
7. …so what *are* you saying people should do to oppose Nazis who are emboldened enough to give TV interviews to ABC News in broad daylight? Wringing ones hands at the awfulness of a guy getting punched isn’t doing *anything*.

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Kara Van Park
24/1/2017 08:34:22 pm

What If I think someone's a Commie, Hugh? Can I start windmilling in like some sort of whirling justice warrior with my car keys in my hand?

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Hugh
24/1/2017 08:41:57 pm

When there are Stalinist revivalists start popping out of the woodwork on national television and receiving "dapper communist" puff pieces in Mother Jones, emboldened by a US election that has elevated a Pravda-Resurgent to part of the inner sanctum of the US government, and when said government is about to enact a set of policies that will disenfranchise and arbitrarily punish anyone who doesn't follow their ideology happens, then, and only then, can we debate that.

Until then, you're just making arbitrary false equivalences to derail the debate.

The Neo-Nazis are here. They are being interviewed on ABC News in 2017. Those are facts. This isn't a hermetically-sealed debate zone where we should idly devil's advocate away while bad things are happening.

Mr Biffo
24/1/2017 10:05:05 pm

So... your solution is to do what, Hugh? Storm white supremacist rallies and beat them up, or mow them down with machine guns, to wipe them off the face of the earth?

S Hawke
24/1/2017 09:24:20 pm

In the footage though Richard Spencer was being rebuked verbally by the protesters around him. He looked as uncomfortable as hell. And then he gets thumped by some idiot, and suddenly Spencer is a sympathetic victim and far right martyr to the hypocrisy of liberals, resorting to violence against anybody who disagrees with them.

What's particularly frustrating is that the protesters around him looked shocked, so it just seemed like one random idiot acting on impulse rather than a mob action. Until the media and twitter starting celebrating the violence.

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blobby
24/1/2017 10:00:02 pm

How dare those people whose politics you hate show themselves in broad daylight? You're adorable.

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rustler my way
25/1/2017 10:55:20 am

'You're adorable' immediately negates any opinion you have

Mr Biffo
24/1/2017 10:03:22 pm

Hugh, as far as point 5 goes - agreed. But who's to say other means wouldn't have worked as well.

With regard to point 7 it's not ripping off a band-aid. There is no quick solution like punching someone in the face. Standing up to extremism is the key.. We live in a free society, where we have laws, and we have a democratic process. We can't just go around whacking people we don't like. We don't need an armed uprising against Nazis yet. I'm sorry, but we're not at that point yet.

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Hugh
25/1/2017 12:16:45 am

We need to do "something" isn't going to be a sufficient response to Nazis anymore though. What form does "standing up to extremism" take, and what purpose does standing up to it have if it is ineffectual? Non-violent protest may not mean no-action, but to a Nazi it is an invitation to exist in that space without fear.

I think another aspect of non-violent protest that is often glossed over is that when it *does* work, it is usually because legal ramifications of it play out (this Twitter thread explains it better than I could: https://twitter.com/sunnysingh_n6/status/824012060052901888). Protesting against a Nazi peacefully doesn't pressurise the status quo to react at all.

I don't know how to respond to your last point without seeming flippant. Historically, waiting for the point where armed uprisings against fascists are needed have all ended very badly for the resistance. There is no breathing room - ideologies that espouse genocide as a desirable end result don't get the benefit of the doubt. Winning the moral superiority game doesn't count for nowt for the people who end up dead in the ground while we sit around feeling morally robust.

Mr Biffo
25/1/2017 08:04:15 am

So...you propose some sort of pre-emptive armed uprising now?

ChorltonWheelie
24/1/2017 08:35:52 pm

Liberals always hitch up their skirts and hide their delicate faces in the face of fascism. Then they collaborate.

Fortunately there are many who understand what they are and how to stop them. Imagine if Mosley had been allowed to march through Cable Street unmolested. Imagine if the National Front had been allowed to march through Lewisham and organise on the terraces without meeting their come-uppance. Death camps and disappearances are the wages of cowardice in the face of fascism. If you haven't the stomach for it don't pretend it's because you are a higher moral being. Too many brave people have sacrificed everything to allow that delusion.

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Hello
24/1/2017 08:54:01 pm

" If you haven't the stomach for it don't pretend it's because you are a higher moral being."

How many Nazis have you wiped off the face of the planet this week, soldier? It's a shame that guy beat you the punch (quitel iterally( isn't it? Stole all your glory.

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PeskyFletch
27/1/2017 06:13:54 pm

He's replaying Medal of Honour, so about 213

Mr Biffo
24/1/2017 09:47:59 pm

Charlton - I think I addressed my view of Mosley and Cable Street. If Mosley had marched through Cable Street unmolested there's an argument he'd have just faded into historical obscurity.

I'm certainly not pretending to be a higher moral being - I don't think I am in the slightest. But in the face of something that I felt was damaging - indeed, potentially a boost to fascism - I thought it was morally remiss of me not to say something.

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Kara Van Park
24/1/2017 08:38:00 pm

What if someone's wearing a Che Guevara tshirt? If I see one in Morrisons can I clothesline them into a display of tinned goods because I suspected them of having leftist sympathies and secretly plotting a Marxist revolution?

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Crab Pate
25/1/2017 10:39:09 am

How did you arrive at that?

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King of Duckhenrys
24/1/2017 09:19:15 pm

Mr Biffo you've nailed it again. The reaction to this event is hypocritical beyond belief.

It is no longer surprising though. It's not about ideologies, it's just base tribalism. People buy into a side, and they buy into a narrative that makes them feel better about themselves. Anyone or anything that doesn't go along with that narrative is the enemy.

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PeskyFletch
27/1/2017 06:15:52 pm

Agreed, it is a bit shitty at the min.

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Pingu
24/1/2017 09:19:52 pm

You should have run with this classic captain america image: http://www.superdickery.com/captain-america-i-command-you-to-wank/

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Hamptonoid
24/1/2017 09:31:44 pm

Nice words. At this point, I just felt a bit numb to the news of the punching. I think images of people burning effigies of thatcher on bbc news was my tipping point.

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Spiney O'Sullivan
24/1/2017 09:59:59 pm

I blame violent video games. With all those games about punching Nazis, we should have known that one day someone would do it in real life.

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Darren link
24/1/2017 10:37:22 pm

Do you know the one weapon that can destroy the Nazis?

The truth...

My great-aunt used to march with the brown shirts back in the days of Cable St. Why? Because she was poor and Moseley used to give them money to do it.

Good people do terrible things when they have no hope.

And what happened to my great-aunt? In 1945, in the last months of WWII, the Nazis bombed Albert Road in Leyton killing her and her two-year-old son and two-month-old daughter.

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Lindsay
25/1/2017 11:05:28 pm

I think there's a place for all sorts of oppositional political activity.

There's a place for a peaceful demonstration. There's a place for an armed revolutionary movement.

There's a place for a chaired, orderly public debate. There's a place for a disruptive heckle. There's a place for No Platform.

There's a place to rely on the police and courts to repress a dangerous movement. There's a place to take direct action.

Over the past few years, we've seen the European and American far right get invited to public debates on national television. We've seen national newspapers give them paid columns and declare editorial positions of support for them. We've seen the police protect their meetings and demonstrations.

We've seen American civilians and cops execute minorities in the street, and either face no charges or have legal defence funds overflow within hours. We've seen a cop casually hose down peaceful protestors with pepper spray and get more compensation than any of them. We've seen the KKK declare support for a Presidential candidate, who built his political platform on demanding a centrist politician prove he isn't a Kenyan Muslim, and went on to win due to rounding errors. We've seen states declare bounty on trans people's bladders. We're seeing attempts to permanently disenfranchise people who have abortions. We're seeing scientists and journalists gagged. We've seen militarised police blockade Native water protectors, hose them down with water in freezing conditions, and round two declared. We've seen a neoliberal interventionist Democratic government build a fleet of assassination drones and had the keys over to a man who told people to "beat the crap out of" his opponents - and send him their legal bills.

We've seen dozens of children get murdered by a Nazi for being socialists. We've seen an MP get stabbed and shot to death in the street by a Nazi for defending refugees. We've seen mobs of coked-up football hooligans (or at least, their educated and articulate agitators) rationalise and intellectualise an afternoon of "paki-bashing" as a political demonstration aiming to discourage extremist Islamism, invoking imagery of the Crusades.

We have seen a member of the Black Bloc movement - that formed as a response to police brutality and has saved many peaceful protestors from dehydration and mass arrest by breaking through police enclosures designed to intimidate and provoke - deliver a punch to someone whose advocacy of genocide is repeatedly being given a platform to generate clicks.

This happened on the same day that a Milo Yiannopolous fan turned up to a Milo event with a loaded gun, shot a restrained Black Bloc street medic (who was trying to intervene in a pepper spray attack), and was released from custody without charge. And then, days before details of the incident came to light, Breitbart and Heat Street ran articles claiming that the shooter was an anti-Milo protester; last I checked, this "alternative fact" was still up.

Since the infamous punch, we've seen the far right saying they're going to need "security" for their visible advocates. Let's be clear - they wear dapper suits but, they never got rid of the boots. They have persistently pushed a narrative about the left being thugs, and it's neither here nor there if antifa actions validate that; a bin gets turned over, or the BBC reverses the footage of Orgreave, and they still get their narrative validated. So when that narrative is a lie, it still gets believed - but they get to leave their boots at home, and they get to present a legitimate & respectable public face, and then you end up with them being the go-to interviewees for every news broadcast chasing ratings. If their "God Emperor" can stand on the highest platform in the land and incite beatings of protestors, and our own pacifism cannot stop his barbarism from winning, what good is it doing?

Everyone's got their own perspectives and narratives and inclinations. I totally get the impulse to avoid violent confrontation, and to never initiate it, and the impulse to be a conscientious objector even when the wolf is at the door. Especially for socio-economic groups whom the police have a tendency not to rush to protect, I don't see that as a luxury that can be depended upon. And if the trend of aggressive policing and "alternative facts" continues upon current trajectories, it may well come to pass that alternatives don't exist.

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King of Duckhenrys
26/1/2017 12:22:51 am

What good did that punch achieve?

Better still, what good did the retweeting of "hilarious" remix videos, and dumb memes on Twitter achieve?

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Nick
26/1/2017 10:11:22 am

"Since the infamous punch, we've seen the far right saying they're going to need "security" for their visible advocates. Let's be clear - they wear dapper suits but, they never got rid of the boots."

It gave them further excuse to act like fascists. Just as they wishes.

On a lighter not (sort of). Do you think anyone in the Black Bloc put some serious thought into that name before going with it. I'm reminded of that scene in 24 Hour Party People where Joy division are changing their name to New Order to appear less fascist. Branding is important. I suggest The lovely Bloc

DEAN
26/1/2017 10:33:22 am

Liking the cut of jib, Nick! Here's another 10!

New Kids on the Bloc
Bloc Party
Bloc Sabbath
Talking Blocs
Megabloc
Snoop Blocky Bloc
Hoodie and the Blocfish
Blocsy Music

Random Reviewer
27/1/2017 12:47:56 am

You could not fashion a more effective recruitment tool for fascists than that punch and the various memes it spawned. Yes, it felt great to see that loathsome dick get punched, but now there is the risk of him gaining martyrdom status. Even if you beat him into submission and he makes no further public statements the video images remain online. Any half-bright Nazi could use them to their advantage.

Also, you write as if those in marginalised groups have no choice but to resort to violence, which I feel does a disservice to the intelligent, eloquent and creative forms of resistance that mortally principled people around the world are employing, as they have done throughout history. It isn't just about holding some self-important high ground. These moral principles MATTER and can't be swept aside for a cause, no matter how important.

Any movement that gives up these principles always loses more then it gains. The loss might not be apparent right away, but always becomes clear over time. You can never recover it once it's gone.

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Dragon
28/1/2017 04:02:27 pm

So is it okay to use preemptive violence against all race supremacists or just the white ones?

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Keith
26/1/2017 08:08:35 am

Mixed feelings about this myself - I'm not entirely with Mr Biffo, and I think his take around Cable Street is a bit of a stretch to try to make it fit within his argument, rather than a realistic contextualisation.

I don't have any issue with actual new nazi's getting punched. What I do have an issue with is the way that virtually everything gets immediately robbed of meaning by becoming a meme, being set to music, and being a twitter debate for a day or so.

I'm sick of Godwin's law, which I think has made people scared to make reasonable comparisons to the rise of the far right that happened in living memory,so I'm going to just act as if Godwin's law is not a thing and say what I think anyway; I don't know how we stop the rise of the far right, and I hope that we've just got lucky in that Trump is too stupid to succeed, and the movement will die. But when we are in a context where expressing an opinion in support of minorities, or women, gets you dismissed as a snowflake and when the media make a "thing" of "alternative facts" and "post truth" rather than loudly and confidently calling out lies, small acts of resistance by individuals, that exist along a spectrum from punching a nazi to small things like signing petitions are all to some extent valid, or at least understandable - it's depressing but "understandable" is to some degree the chasm between us and the actions of new nazis/alt right.

Having said that, I agree with the guy who said the ANL are almost/just as bad as the nazis - years and years ago I went on a coach trip to Stoke for a rock against racism gig, after I'd got chatting to a SWP type selling tickets. It was a real eye opener to see how thuggish and ignorant most of the people I shared the coach with actually were, and I've no doubt that a good percentage of them would have quite happily been in the BNP/EDL if their mates had happened to have been in that group instead of the one they were in

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Paul Gravy
27/1/2017 09:50:24 pm

I've just puffled and it smelled like Play-Doh.

Reply



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