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SKYRIM AND THE PROBLEM WITH RPGS - by Mr bIFFO

7/8/2018

36 Comments

 
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Because I'm a walloping great moron, I bought Skyrim for my Switch last week. I'd played it when it first came out some years ago, and stuck with it long beyond the point where my interest had condensed into animosity.

I remember the moment at which I finally snapped; I'd ascended some mountain or other, and kept dying. Eventually, the final, fraying thread of my enjoyment came apart, and I admit that I may have sworn like a taxi driver as I quit the game in a blind convulsion of rage. 

Everything up until then had felt like a slog, reminding me of the times my parents would drag me along to their friends' houses for a gruelling marathon of smalltalk. I'd sit there, minutes tightening into weeks, while they intoned about, I dunno, wallpaper and work. Typically I'd retreat into my own head for respite.

On one occasion, I became so lost in some ridiculous imaginary scenario that I burst out laughing and spat a mouthful coleslaw all over the hosts' dinner table. Which, on the plus side, so embarrassed my parents that they concluded subsequently that I was old enough to look after myself while they went out.

Frankly, if that's what I'm doing while trying to play a video game, then I have to accept that the video game might not be for me. Indeed, the most fun I'd had up until the point I stopped allowing Skyrim to ruin my life, was running around a village in my pants... having thrown all my clothes and armour onto the roof of a house.

"Art" imitating life...
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THE DODGY GROUND OF BROTHVARD
There were two main things which kept me going with Skyrim. Firstly, there was the feeling that at any second it was going to blossom into the amazing game that everyone had told me it was.  

Secondly, I was seduced by the visuals, that sense of being in a big, open, world. I could appreciate the scale of the achievement, and didn't want to feel like I was dismissing what was, without doubt, the result of a lot of people pouring their energy and care into it. Of course, such games are ubiquitous now and, lamentably, Skyrim's graphics haven't entirely stood the test of time.

​Consequently, the aspects I found troublesome before are now even harder to ignore.

Not only are the visuals - particularly the character models - achingly dated, but the combat is all trial-and-error, a maelstrom of desperate flailing. It's like attacking a bunch of department store mannequins with a long cardboard tube, while your wrist is attached to an elastic rope tethered to a bust of Terry Pratchett. 

I'm forced to conclude that Skyrim is one of those games I rank alongside Dark Souls, in that I just don't get it... but I've yet to fully accept that. I want to believe.

I bought it again on the same promise of being transported to a massive world where I can do anything. I've had a really tough year with work, I'm horrifically burnt-out, and I could really do with escaping somewhere else for a while. Unfortunately, Skyrim, once again, has proven itself to be as much of a grind as I now remember it being. It's the precise opposite of something I can lose myself in; I battle more with the controls and the lazy world-building than I do the dragons and giant spiders and that.

I mean, it takes a particular sort of RPG to keep my interest at the best of times; fortunately, Zelda manages to circumnavigate most of the things I struggle with, adhering mostly to its own set of rules and customs.

Partly it's down to the fantasy genre itself. I appreciate that The Lord of the Rings was something fresh and groundbreaking when it first appeared, but so much subsequent fantasy just feels derivative and lazy.

And I say this as somebody who was obsessed with Dungeons & Dragons as a kid. ​
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THE TROPES OF WRATH
As a Star Wars fan, I know I'm on dodgy ground when I say I roll my eyes at the story and naming conventions of the RPG/fantasy genre. Three minutes into Skyrim on the Switch, and I was already spitting coleslaw at the screen, having met characters with names like Kelbroth, and Geldor, and Bronwin - a Greycloak from the Kingdom of Crannygust.

It doesn't help that it's so hard to ignore the world-building in RPGs, because so often you're forced to endure wearisome dialogue sequences - which are rarely, if ever, interesting, or even remotely human.

Nobody in a fantasy RPG ever talks like people talk. It's always that watered-down RP, presumably an effort to sound quasi-Shakespearean, or something... which authors of fantasy fiction believe sounds sufficiently olde-worlde to lend a certain gravitas. It's borderline racist.


Whether it's Skyrim, Witcher 3, or Dragon Age Inquisition, these games are always so far up their own mythos you'd need an enema to retrieve them. Rather than let the tale be told through passive storytelling, through actions and environment, we're presented with reams of texts - books, scrolls, things inscribed on stone tablets... plus interminable cut-scenes and godawful monologues.

The storytelling in the vast majority of fantasy RPGs is utterly, painfully, profoundly, almost without exception, dreadful.

WHO SHOT JRR?
Nintendo, as mentioned, gets it right. Everything in, say, Breath of the Wild is minimalist. Consequently, it's one of the few fantasy RPG series I get along with, because it isn't constantly bowing down to Tolkien.

But it's not just the story in fantasy RPGs I struggle with. It's all the other little tropes, which show so little original thinking, and are merely recycled from all that has gone before. The tired inventory juggling, the need to search every last chest, corpse, or cupboard for a few coins, or a loaf of bread, or a magic potion. These are all things which break the immersion for me - the constant collecting, the constant, nagging sense that you've missed something,

Then there's the crafting of weapons and other inventory items, the ridiculous multiple-choice conversations, the endless side-quests, the skill trees. The rifling around in other people's homes without consequence. Or with consequence. The random battles which interrupt your attempts to get from A to B.

And the forests and the mountains - oh, for pity's sake... please no more endless mountains and forests. I am SO over mountains and forests and caves and waterfalls in video games. Please. Stop. 

All of it together, for me, makes playing most RPGs about as much fun as filling out a year-end financial statement while a semi-tumescent 16 year-old in a Neil Gaiman t-shirt reads from an annotated copy of Terry Brooks' The Fall of Shannara Book Two: The Skaar Invasion. Yes, that is a real thing.

In short: I wish I'd never spent forty quid on Skyrim for a second time. It has twice ruined my life.
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36 Comments
Sean McErlean
7/8/2018 09:29:07 am

I found Oblivion and Skyrim to be far more enjoyable when I whacked the difficulty slider as far down as it could go and just romped about as a dragon slaying demigod. The best bits of the games is when they come up some clever quests that aren't just "Go here and collect this thing on the other side of the map" anyway.

Then again, I still give up Skyrim quite early after climbing a mountain to talk to a dragon that kept slipping "dragon language" in and giving a wee translation every two sentences. I just couldn't take it seriously.

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Captain Red Dog
7/8/2018 09:38:35 am

I think the barrier for me is the inventory. Skyrim just has so much shite you can collect that it becomes overwhelming. Breath of the Wild also bowed to this with a baffling amount of guff to collect to craft better armour.

Thankfully Breath of the Wild streamlined all other aspects which is what RPGs need to do these days to stay relevant. I don't have time to search far and wife for three wild elder frost berries to craft a new belt. Streamline it, make them accessible again and focus on the fun aspects.

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HdE
7/8/2018 09:39:49 am

Speaking as somebody who's had the polar opposite experience with Skyrim (I actually find it pretty relaxing, and I'm playing the same version) I have to say... I totally get what's being said here.

Video games are supposed to be fun. And there's nothing worse than the feeling that you're trapped in an interactive experience that isn't doing anything for you. Except, maybe, the notion that you're missing something that everybody else is clued in on.

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Sowb
7/8/2018 09:52:21 am

My favourite thing Zelda BOTW gets right compared with Skyrim, is the lack of map markers. In Skyrim I found myself just following the quest markers on the in game map rather than finding my way about. Zelda used them a bit, but in general left discovery up to the player while gently guiding. It would be great in Skyrim if people gave directions or landmarks to look out for with your eyes (or scrawl on the enclosed map yourself!) rather than marking stuff on the map for you

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Nikki
7/8/2018 10:03:33 am

The problem with all of these modern games is that they're not Chrono Trigger.

Except Stardew Valley, which is Chrono Trigger on a farm.

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MENTALIST
7/8/2018 10:26:38 am

Zelda isn't an RPG.

And (apart from supposedly Zelda 2, which I've never played much) never has been. It's always been an action-adventure game, and so nowadays has a lot more in common with the likes of Assassin's Creed (and therefore also GTA) than with even the most action oriented RPGs.

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Bob Trousers
7/8/2018 01:06:15 pm

I've often wondered about these definitions. I find them confusing. Could you give a fundamental difference between BotW and Skyrim? I'm genuinely curious about buying one of them. You could say I'm buy-curious.

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MENTALIST
7/8/2018 01:27:37 pm

The key difference is that you can, or are expected to, specialise your character in RPGs, and perhaps secondarily for there to be branching outcomes in plotlines. You build your character, as you define your role in the world through choices in conversations and actions in quests.

In Zelda, you play the one Link, and you power yourself up through the same set of items and abilities that everyone does in order to fight Ganon or whoever at the end. There's very little role-play involved.

Breath of the Wild is a little more rpg-ish than most Zeldas, in that you can skip some of the equipment and abilities, and divide your power bonuses between health and agility to slightly different effects, plus there are crafting mechanics which are quite rpg-ish. But you don't really inhabit the character the same way as you can in the Elder Scrolls or Fallout games, building up relationships with characters and factions, or choosing to focus entirely on social or espionage skills as an alternative to the various forms of combat.

Mark M
7/8/2018 11:18:40 am

Agreed that Skyrim is a bloody hoarder's nightmare. Why do I have all this junk in my inventory and why am I struggling to part with it, "just in case"? Odd as I'm not like that in real life!

How I sunk so many hours into Skyrim is beyond me. I actually think I spent more time modding the game than playing it which in the end was a not insignificant proportion my life that I could have been far more productive with.

I personally don't think Witcher 3 is too cheesy acting wise at all. I thought some of the more corny acting was obviously tongue-in-cheek. Actually, playing Skyrim again after finishing TW3 showed it up for all its flaws and quickly got uninstalled.

Anyways, I can't wait for Cyberpunk 2077. I've had my fill of the fantasy mediaeval stuff now - it's been done to death.

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Some Guy
7/8/2018 12:37:48 pm

The biggest problem I think you're having here is that you're playing a selection of bland Triple A adventure games on console confusing themselves with RPGs. Go towards more indie products on PC. The subversive and nuanced Planescape:Torment, the weird american made comedy scifi mix of Anacronox, the highly reactive and atmospheric Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines. RPG's are more than just the boring stuff put out by people who don't actually care about the genre.

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Jol
7/8/2018 03:28:19 pm

Bloodlines is flipping brilliant; so many good missions. The haunted house and snuff video quests in particular are great.

Quite a few modern RPGs (and games in general) do suffer from homogeneity to a degree; big open world maps with lots of icons, crafting, collecting... The scale is often impressive but all too often it feels like padding.

Compare Dragon Age Inquisition to Origins - Inquisition is gigantic, and while it does have some good moments it's all spread so thinly over monstrous open maps whereas Origins gets to the good stuff much more quickly.

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Neptunium
7/8/2018 01:14:01 pm

"..so often you're forced to endure wearisome dialogue sequences - which are rarely, if ever, interesting, or even remotely human."

I think this is a reason I like Zelda so much. The story is simple, the lore is there if you want it but it's entirely optional, and there is minimal grinding.

I've tried in vain several times to get back into JRPG's, including Octopath, but I've about given up. Grind - tons of dialog - grind - tons of dialog - grind.. The dialogue just isn't worth the effort - if I'd have wanted to read a story I'd have read a book.

I think as I've got older I've realised that the storylines are all guff and my limited time is reserved for the gameplay. If it ever feels like a grind I just can't be arsed.

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Lindsay
7/8/2018 01:18:07 pm

Much of what you say about Skyrim was true for me about BotW... felt like everything was ‘learn by dying, over and over’ with quicksaving being so fundamental to progress that it’s automated and presented by default. And the mountains. Oh, the mountains. Does Skyrim periodically rain on you and disable your ‘make time pass so the weather changes’ ability? The number of times I stood on a ledge and put the Switch down for a few minutes, looking up from my phone every ten seconds to check a bat or skellybob wasn’t trying to kick me down the hill.

I did appreciate the minimalist, amnesia-based storytelling, but the worldbuilding fell short for me. No actual ice or thunder or sun palaces or suchlike in the extreme weather biomes? ‘You can’t go farther’ invisible walls? About half a dozen common species of foe and half as many boss type monsters, with nothing special about the castle guardians other than the same with extra health? Was Ganon’s return like an extinction event that was worse news for his own Darknuts, Tektites, Gibdos and Like Likes than it was for his enemies?

And apparently, they *tried* implementing the hookshot and decided to *remove* it? What’s that about? When I cautiously dipped my toe back into AAA with Arkham City, I was amazed by how much it felt like the Zelda game I’d always wanted to play. It was like... combining the Hookshot with the Zora swimming in Majora, with related missions straight out of Pilotwings. When I saw pictures of a gliding Link and thermals, I was looking forwards to swooping and swinging across a ruin-pockmarked Hyrule, like a winged Zora... nope, turned out to be rambling, climbing, paragliding, and trying not to get your horse killed.

I’m cautiously optimistic about a follow-up. They’ve got the hang of building a map with lots of interesting major landmarks and not overwhelming you with information (still lost interest in my second playthrough when I realised I wasn’t revealing the map where I rode - all or nothing unveils really don’t work for me, especially in a game where you’re extremely vulnerable at the start and might need to retrace your early steps). If they can put a commensurate amount of work into realising the bestiary they’ve been building for thirty years, doing something more interesting with the culture of the monsters (which made me feel guilty for shooting them in the head mid-story, or slitting their throats whilst they sleep) than wearing a funny mask (that probably pacifies them by making them wonder why a Hylian’s doing Bokface in 2017), and do something more imaginative with Zora technology than it enabling you to swim up a waterfall (whilst they have to build their fish city above land because it’s easier for them to walk than for visitors to put on a magical helmet), I might just ‘get’ it next time around...

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Jim Leighton (Future World Darts Champion) x
7/8/2018 01:20:08 pm

Final Fantasy, I have loved them all (not the online ones, or the ones not on PS3, PS4, PS, and GameCube, and not the films either).

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Mike
7/8/2018 02:10:33 pm

Shenmue is pretty much the perfect RPG for me. Does away with a lot of the things that get in the way of enjoying a game, great combat and a fantastic world to get lost in. Looking forward to playing through these again!

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Marro
8/8/2018 02:17:32 am

I've never thought of Shen Mue as an RPG before but now I think on it... you're right. In light of this revelation, I can now say I have enjoyed an RPG.
Hey look at me - I'm a guy who once liked an RPG! Weeeee!

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Mike
10/8/2018 12:41:51 am

It's definitely got all the bits you'd expect from an RPG, just the combat is enjoyable and the setting present day (well, 80's but not Tolkien or blade runner times) Lovely games.

Mark
7/8/2018 02:25:05 pm

Biffo you should have got octopath traveler instead it’s great and I’m not really into RPGs for all the reasons you have mentioned but OT has changed my mind I just clicked with it instantly although I’m stuck on a boss but I want to get past the boss I would normally just give up and the graphics are lovely

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Little Jonny
19/8/2018 08:04:02 am

I found it to be... grind, bad story, grind, bad story, grind bad story. Combat is not fun. The game is not fun. The story is not fun.

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Meatballs-me-branch-me-do
7/8/2018 03:25:43 pm

I found Skyrim fairly meh after Oblivion, until I installed two mods to add the need to eat, drink and sleep; and to need to bundle up against the cold/wet. This, combined with not using fast travel, made the adventure more about getting around the world alive, and less about finding the Golden Claw and returning it to Bjorn Fuckbeard.

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RM
7/8/2018 03:37:35 pm

Was the place where you stopped playing that one frost troll on the way up to high hrothgar, aka the final boss of skyrim?

Anyway (being slightly fanboyish here as i’m aware of how dated and boring it is) it sounds like the game you really want is morrowind. The writing and worldbuilding in that game was mainly ken rolson (who was the head writer on oblivion) who did hoity toity high fantasy stuff, and michael kirkbride, who was hell bent on subverting and sabotaging the elder scrolls universe and fantasy tropes in general, and half of his writing was drug-induced gibberish (see the 36 lessons of vivec for details). more to the point, it is a game that isn’t afraid to throw you into weird and disorienting situations and wear its weirdness on its sleeve in the places where skyrim is drearily dumbed down and the interesting stuff relegated to books and a few unimportant conversations

but i don’t know, you might just find it all tiresome. i think you need to have a certain nerdy teenage escapism

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Steve
7/8/2018 05:02:48 pm

Mr Biffo, how did you get along with Fallout 3, NV or 4?
Did the setting and story make it more playable, even with the similar/identical grind and mission structure, or was it too much of the same?

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Spod's Revenge
7/8/2018 06:41:15 pm

I must have around 500 hours in Skyrim on PC but the majority of that was modded, both graphics and gameplay. I used the 'delay main quest' mod and would just place new characters in different scenarios with the difficulty ramped way up, survival mods etc, so it was actually a challenge to keep yourself fed and alive. For me the fun was making my own character's story, cataloguing stuff with my journal mod and ignoring the entire dragon thing completely.

That's why I liked Fallout 3 and NV, but got bored with Fallout 4 - I couldn't really go my own path. Like with the Elder Scrolls I love the lore, but not the linear storyline. Might look into it again with mods to trim the main story off. Having to play any Bethesda game vanilla on a console though would be physically painful for me.

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Gary42
7/8/2018 08:58:51 pm

It would be difficult for me to agree any more with you than I currently do, without installing some sort of agreement chip into my very brain, which as far as I'm aware remains out of reach of as much as 60% of the population.

Funnily enough, I obviously have a higher tolerance for sci-fi. I love Mass Effect - all three - (yes, three, that's what I said), but have no tolerance at all for Dragon Age, despite it basically being the same thing. The same doesn't apply to Fallout because I prefer it when games actually work properly. I'm unsure why Bethesda seem to get some sort of pass, despite all of their games being stupidly messed up. Skyrim's been out for 200 years and yet still has more bugs than my grandmother, who keeps bugs, obviously.

I'd be interested to know, Mr B, whether this extends to telly and that - I couldn't bear Game of Thrones because of the stupid language problem, but I'll watch the most embarrassingly poor science fiction stuff regardless. Often in my pants, but that's my business.

Anyway, thanks for reading, if you got this far. Have a lovely day!

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S Hawke
7/8/2018 09:48:04 pm

Say what you like about the Elder Scroll games, but at least they give you the chance to break into the bedrooms of other characters, put on their clothes and then watch them while they're asleep. How many other games do that?

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Hamptonoid
7/8/2018 10:47:22 pm

The last RPG-type game that I loved was ni no kuni, in no small part due to Mr. Drippy and his thick Welsh accent and phrasings.

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MENTALIST
8/8/2018 10:39:41 am

There's lovely, isn't it?

The lack of Drippy in Ni No Kuni 2 has completely eroded my interest in it.

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Hamptonoid
8/8/2018 12:33:35 pm

No Mr. Drippy, really??? Flippin eck, mun, that's a proper disaster, innit?

Psy-Q
8/8/2018 12:56:54 pm

Do try West of Loathing. Lovely dialogue, very compact world, no fantasy elements. But occasionally a ghost horse.

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Kelvin Green link
8/8/2018 01:55:58 pm

I've played and finished Skyrim twice -- once as a goodie and once as a baddie -- and it's okay? A wobbly 6 out of 10 maybe, but nothing more, and I'm astounded at its continued popularity. There is potentially an excellent game in there, but it's as if every time they made a creative decision during development, they chose the least interesting one.

Xenoblade came out at around the same time, and I had much more fun with that. The world was more interesting, there was more going on, and it was more fun to play.

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Almighty Casual
9/8/2018 05:58:09 pm

Dark Souls doesn't smother you in crap lore, only beautiful decay and storytelling worthy of an epic poem.

I have no idea how anyone could dislike it, but lots do so that shows what I know.

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James Cane
9/8/2018 10:03:45 pm

Elite Dangerous! Everything is a grind.....but I love it more than anything.

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stealthwolf
10/8/2018 12:32:55 pm

I know others will hate me for this but...cheat.

I liked Morrowind but hated getting killed. So I enabled "god mode" and I could play uninterrupted. It made it more enjoyable. I didn't get round to playing Oblivion but I did buy Skyrim.

After the first hour of gameplay, I did two things: enable god-mode, and use a mod to turn spiders into bears (I hate spiders). It was a much more enjoyable romp but I still think Morrowind was a better game.

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Ross link
11/8/2018 05:02:09 am

Skyrim is a time sink.

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Ubertoaster
12/8/2018 07:01:16 pm

Agree about Skyrim, it always felt like a chore. I never got anywhere near finishing it. And yes, the written story junk in RPGs is *awful*. Half-Life 2 has a great story - you pick it up from observations, conversations, announcements and a few newspaper cuttings. These tell you everything you need to know about the world you're in.

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ChorltonWheelie
14/8/2018 01:59:18 pm

Skyrim and Fallout 4 are the two worst game buying decisions I've made.

I should have stuck to my guns and not been swayed by the adulation poured upon them.

People are just the worst.

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