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review: super mario odysssey - Nintendo Switch

1/11/2017

70 Comments

 
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i'm going to say it, and some of you are not going to like it. Here is the it that I am going to say: given the way the world has shifted in recent years, it feels misguided that your overall task in Super Mario Odyssey is to once again rescue the helpless Princess Peach.

While I'm no fan of political correctness running rampant for the sake of it - too often the noble purpose of equality for all is damaged by those who take it too far - we nevertheless live in a different world now.

While I wouldn't ever advocate a Mario game in which Mario changed gender, or whatever, it feels wrong that Peach has been abducted - as she always seems to be - by Bowser, a literal and metaphorical dinosaur. This time he's forcing her to marry him, and travelling the universe, always one step ahead of Mario, collecting the items he needs for their wedding.

In a post-Weinstein/Trump climate, I'm struggling with the idea of offering a female character as the ultimate prize - for both antagonist and protagonist - regardless of whether it's part of Mario series tradition. 
Sorry if that grates with you, but it's the first thing you're presented with in Super Mario Odyssey, and it jumped out at me as feeling anachronistic and out of step with the times. And yeah, if you'd asked me a couple of years ago, I wouldn't have had any issue with it.

I don't for a second believe there was any malicious intent here; it's all done quite innocently, but it feels as if that aspect of the game was created in a bubble. Regardless, that's no defence in an era when it has been revealed that the innocent days of our youth were populated by sexual predators masquerading and entertainers and other powerful figures. 

All of that has changed me. I feel betrayed by it, like I had something taken from me personally. That - without direct contact with any of them - Savile, Harris, Glitter, Stuart Hall, and the rest, robbed my childhood of its purity.

Furthermore, I'm seeing the world anew through the eyes of my kids and step-kids, and we're moving rapidly into a new era where gender and sexuality have more fluid definitions, and women need to be seen as more than trinkets.

It's scary, I know, for those of us who weren't born into this time, but I genuinely hope that this is the last Mario game to clutch onto that old trope. 

Anyway. That's that out of the way. I'll slither off my soapbox. Onto the review.
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WHERE TO BEGIN?
It's hard to know where to begin with Super Mario Odyssey. It's a big game in every sense, but mostly in the weight of its ideas. It doesn't take long to realise why Nintendo doesn't churn out the tentpole Mario and Zelda games anymore. Frankly, with all the manpower in the world it'd be impossible to create a game of this scope any quicker. 

What has taken me most by surprise with Odyssey is the structure. Give the pre-release hype, I thought it was going to be all about New Donk City - the sort-of-realistic recreation of New York that's as much sandbox as level - but in reality, New Donk - or the Metro Kingdom - is just one small part of the overall experience. Similarly, that dinosaur they showed us? It's one of the first things you encounter, and is a minor part of the game. 

Rather than the sprawling open world I thought it was going to be, Odyssey is a series of large sandbox areas, where you're tasked with collecting moons that will power the airship that'll take you to the next stage. There are more moons in each area than you need to move on, meaning that there's always reason to return and continue exploring.

As you doubtless know by now, the new addition to the Mario moves canon is magic cap. It's genius, not least in how well it integrates with the traditional Mario gameplay. As well as being able to lob your hat to collect coins, you can - later on - use it as a temporary platform, or possess objects and certain enemies with it.

This allows you to take on the powers and properties of that enemy, giving you access to new areas, or solving puzzles. It's astonishing how these powers are used and discarded so swiftly, before you move onto the next idea. Any one of them would form the basis of the entirety of most other games. 

In a lot of ways, Odyssey is a greatest hits of Mario. Throughout there are nods to the past. Some of them are blatant - the sections where Mario enters a section of a level where he becomes a 2D version of himself, a stunning musical sequence which pays tribute to the original Donkey Kong - and in other, more subtle ways (a dash of Super Mario Sunshine here, a big chunk of Super Mario 64 there).

In fact, the sheer variety of the gameplay - while never being jarring - is its biggest strength. It reminded me of Yoshi's Island, and the way that game would lob new ways of play at the player, before hurrying along to the next one. It's ADHD in game form. 
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PENALISE
What I've always love about Nintendo games is how they never penalise the player. it's about the joy of playing - not beating you over the head with your failure.

There's no real dying in Odyssey - you lose a few coins, and are sent back to a checkpoint, but that's okay. New ideas are introduced gently; there's no hitting you over the head with them. By the time you have a boss encounter, you should know all you need to defeat them.

It's classic Nintendo style, albeit wrapped up in the best looking Mario game ever. Yes, there are the usual lava, ice, and jungle levels, but there are more original visuals in there too - a food-based world, a frozen Mexican desert, a chilly land filled with deep snow drifts which culminates in a race as Mario assumes the identity of a rubber ball-esque polar bear.

Then there are the costumes; collecting coins allows you to fill out Mario's wardrobe with a variety of get-ups, typically themed to the various levels... or you can just enjoy him running around in his pants.

​The new outfits generally don't impact on the gameplay (though - oddly - this is the second big Nintendo game this year in which a male protagonist can access new areas by dressing as a woman), but are just a further example of the bewildering array of stuff on offer.

And yet, at no point have I felt overwhelmed by any of it, even though there's always the sneaking suspicion - as I gather enough moons to move on - that I've missed something special.
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THE THING
So, here's the thing. This is a phenomenal game. It's polished, full of ingenuity, there's tons of stuff to do... and spending time with it is insanely satisfying.

But... in all honesty, I think I preferred the two Super Mario Galaxy games. Only just though.

In a way, those games felt more of a revolution of the Mario format than Odyssey does - which, for all its modern polish, feels more like a continuation of Super Mario 64 than anything else. The mind-bending geography in Galaxy was, somehow, cleverer than Odyssey.

Also, I have to call out the decision to make some of the moves only usable if you're playing Odyssey using the detached Joy Con controllers.

I tend to favour my Switch as a handheld system - frankly, that's its USP more than the controllers - which means that flicking the Joy Cons to the side or vertically to spin your hat in a certain way doesn't really work for me. It's a strange oversight on the part of the designers.


Still, Super Mario Odyssey remains as a superlative experience, a celebration of the potential of the video game-y-ness of video games, and another solid reason to own a Switch. It's the sort of game that most developers look upon with envy; oh to have the time, oh to have the imagination, to create something like this.

​SCORE: ​60 out of 64
70 Comments
Jareth Smith
1/11/2017 10:32:52 am

It's an absolutely stunning game, no doubts, and I've still got a huge amount to discover, but at the moment I wouldn't consider it the 10/10 masterpiece many in the media have labelled it as. I've been surprised by how contained some of the levels are, I was hoping for more of a sprawling Mario adventure.

BUT! It's still incredibly good, an utter joy to play, and a definite 9/10 from me. Breath of the Wild remains the best game of the year, though, by some margin.

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Mr Boxes
1/11/2017 10:41:53 am

The return to the Peach abduction thing is doubly weird as Super Mario 3D World on the Wii U (arguably the last mainline Mario game, or it would be if anyone had played it) featured her as a fully playable character (one of four). Cat Peach became the de facto standard way for my partner and I to play the game. Because Cat Peach is totally awesome.

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Sean McErlean
1/11/2017 10:50:36 am

I do think it's a 10/10 masterpiece, but I agree Galaxy edges it. That game had so many ideas that they built another equally good game out of their left over ideas. They didn't even really riff on lots of them; less developers would have been churning them out for a decade. This is substantially different though, and I'm glad we got this rather than Galaxy 3, if that makes sense.

I thought the ending made clear Peach was an object, so I thought that helped.

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Mrtankthreat
1/11/2017 11:08:04 am

There's no real dying in Dark Souls, you just lose some souls and are sent back to a checkpoint, but that's OK. Oh wait, apparently it's not.

Sorry, had to be done.

On a serious note I agree the Peach is kidnapped trope is getting tiresome and anachronistic in this day and age. I'm starting to go along with the theory that actually Peach and Bowser are together and just screwing with Mario although that's probably even more regressive.

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Jareth Smith
1/11/2017 11:16:09 am

To be fair, Nintendo mixes the "Peach kidnapped" trope up in this edition after the first ending; as a device, it's just there to send Mario off on an adventure. Miyamoto has been open about how irrelevant her considers a story in a game and mixing it up for the sake of it... well, why not? How about Luigi kidnaps Peach and then Toad goes postal with a bazooka? I'd play that game.

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Jareth Smith
1/11/2017 11:17:18 am

That's a typo, by the way, I don't believe Miyamoto is a woman.

Mrtankthreat
1/11/2017 11:40:58 am

If it's irrelevant then it could be removed. And Toad going postal with a bazooka sounds like a terrible game but I'm sure you would play it if Nintendo made it rather than one of those evil triple A developers.

Anyway, to be honest I was hoping more people would comment on my excellent Dark Souls observation than on the whole Peach thing.

Mrtankthreat
1/11/2017 12:13:53 pm

Hey Jareth, you know tone can be tricky to get across in text and on reflection my comment there might have come off more harshly than intended. I enjoy your passionate defence of Nintendo for the most part.

Jareth Smith
1/11/2017 03:03:42 pm

Mrtankthreat - First and foremost I'm a video game fan. Have been for 30 years. The pursuit of exceptional titles is what I'm interested in and this is provided by the indie scene, Nintendo, and several other AAA developers.

The vast majority of the rest is generic filler; my issue with Sony and Microsoft is the tedious focus on specs, which is stultifying the gameplay experience and now playing games on those consoles is, effectively, like watching a movie. Movies with the most atrocious dialogue and story arcs imaginable.

Nintendo, simply put, almost always delivers exceptional games, which is why I praise them. Also, massive kudos to them for ignoring the tedious morons who've convinced themselves graphics are the most important thing about games and, instead, delivering the brilliance of the Switch. I just wish Sony and Microsoft followed suit and suggested their developers actually try and focus more on gameplay.

Jareth Smith
1/11/2017 03:13:34 pm

Mrtankthreat: "If it's irrelevant then it could be removed" - Well I think every developer would have to make a bloody big spreadsheet about all the irrelevant things they could remove from their video games.

The Mario games are deliberately absurd and not supposed to reflect reality. Meanwhile, in games such as GTA, I'd suggest gender stereotypes are far more atrocious. This is a game series where the player can hire a prostitute, do the deed, then murder the prostitute in cold blood. I'd suggest we challenge such gratuitous sexist violence, which is widespread across the industry, before challenging Nintendo's innocuous reliance on a longstanding, essentially in-joke, trope.

Spiney O’Sullivan
1/11/2017 04:12:14 pm

GTA and Mario aren’t comparable. Mario games are suitable for all ages, and there is maybe an argument that narratives like the damsel thing set up expectations in the somewhat uncritical minds of children about how genders relate to each other.

GTA is a horrible, exploitative dark satire of society at its worst (and a fun one at that) , and really shouldn’t be played by children at all. Anyone playing GTA should be old enough to be able to think more critically than children, so you’re comparing U-rated apples and 18-rated oranges.

Timmypoos
1/11/2017 08:49:43 pm

Not related to this post. Spoilers below.

Super Bad Advice
1/11/2017 12:03:02 pm

I'm hugely enjoying Odyssey, but yeah - the whole 'rescue the princess' thing is a bit old, and I'm surprised they didn't ditch it or put a spin on it (even Zelda managed this in the sense that she'd been single-handedly holding off Ganon for a century and Link was playing catchup to let her finish the job).

About the only thing going for it is that it doesn't really seem to be (from Mario's POV) anything romantic where Peach is Mario's 'prize'. He's more like some sort of weird royal bodyguard than much else, and Bowser the bad guy. And I suppose the 'damsel in distress' from Donkey Kong now being mayor is a nice touch.

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Mrtankthreat
1/11/2017 12:28:10 pm

I was gonna say something similar. The notion that Peach is a prize is unnecessary. Even if Mario and Peach are romantically involved shouldn't and wouldn't he be interested in saving her anyway without thinking of what he'll "get" out of it? What's he supposed to do? Not rescue her lest people think he's only after one thing?

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Captain Red Dog
1/11/2017 01:11:14 pm

Honestly the Peach kidnapped thing is just a trope, it's a joke in itself these days, does it genuinely bother people? If we are taking the story that seriously there are plenty of other aspects of it (the utterly basic nature) before getting into gender politics. Not every game needs to be, or should be, Rise of the Horizon Zero Dawn.

The plot is a throwaway device, not to be taken seriously.

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Paddy Hill
1/11/2017 01:16:45 pm

Oh come on ... can we please leave Mario out of social politics? Please? I thought the whole point of Mario is to rescue Princess Peach. Mario games have never really been about story (they've never been very detailed anyway) - it's been about the gameplay. There are sooo many other games that are actually based in the real world that need calling out for their gender portrayals! The real world has indeed shifted ... but since when has Mario been about the real world?

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colincidence link
1/11/2017 02:01:56 pm

just thought I'd combo-break the above two comments trying to justify damselling by saying there are bigger problems and appealing to tradition. I'll say something more worthwhile. Curry's nice, isn't it?

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Voodoo76
1/11/2017 02:23:16 pm

Chinese, Indian or the electrical goods stores?

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colincidence link
1/11/2017 02:31:11 pm

Indian > Japanese > Chinese > electronics is the definitive ranking

Hamptonoid
1/11/2017 11:20:26 pm

Thai green curry for the win though, surely?

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PeskyFletch
3/11/2017 04:07:08 pm

Ughhh, how vanilla you are, hamptonoid

Hamptonoid
3/11/2017 05:05:56 pm

Fair enough. Thanks for that.

RichardM
1/11/2017 02:02:54 pm

I had a vague recollection of some of the Paper Mario stuff being a bit different, but on reading the plot summary of of Thousand Year Door Peach was indeed just kidnapped. She did a bit more to effect her own escape in that case, at least.

I kind of liked the bit at the end of Sunshine when Bowser revealed to his son that Peach wasn’t really his mother. They should have elaborated on that instead, or kidnapped Luigi, or Yoshi, or something. Or maybe just dumped the entirely irrelevant plot altogether!

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Kev Spacey
1/11/2017 02:03:23 pm

My God.


Are boys allowed nothing anymore?

How many games still use the rescue girl plot?

Can't they be allowed just one?

The most popular books are romance novels that always involve a wealthy, tall, high status alpha male who is sexually aggressive.

What kind of message and pressure does that put on young men? Oh wait, no one gives a rats arse cos it's only boys so who cares.

Where are the calls for that old trope to be removed? About time the female dominated market of fiction novels got with the times yeah?

Can't you let boys just have one flaming game with one of the most popular plots in history?

Like the romance novels, the plot sells. Consumers like it, that's why it exists.


The Identity Politics cancer spreading to a game that is one long acid trip from start to finish is kind of amusing in a way though.

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colincidence link
1/11/2017 02:34:56 pm

gee whiz

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Mario
1/11/2017 02:38:28 pm

Mama mia, what he said!

Now get back to persuading Netflix to make one more series of House of Cards Kev!

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Christian Grey
1/11/2017 03:56:19 pm

I find your comments hurtful. I’m a very sensitive fellow who can only express his inner turmoil by abusing a subordinate.

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Voodoo76
1/11/2017 02:39:26 pm

Aside from the story Nintendo also need to make clear his plumbing credentials. I'm not sure what the Italian or American regulations are but over here we have certain standards. Does he have an up to date Water Supply Regulation Certificate, Certificate of Competence, Gas safe licence, Insurance etc. I hope i don't see rogue traders investigating soon.

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Mario
1/11/2017 02:41:58 pm

Mama mia, oh no!

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Luigi
1/11/2017 03:37:30 pm

Maaaaario?

Clockwork Fool
2/11/2017 03:43:38 am

That's the least of his worries, (not like he ever does any real plumbing after all).

He once was caught impersonating a doctor!

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Spiney O’Sullivan
1/11/2017 03:35:09 pm

I got to try the demo a few months ago, and came away with mixed feelings. Overall, it seems like a very good platformer, and a very good sequel to Mario 64. A very good game in general.

However, it didn’t blow me away the way that 64 or Galaxy did, and something bugged me about the tendency to lean a bit heavily on the “do you remember this” stuff, such as the 2D sprite bits.

Now, as for Galaxy, I admit that the fully navigable planetoids concept wasn’t even actually new by the time Galaxy was out, but I hadn’t played Ratchet and Clank by then, so the effect was still mind-blowing to me, and the combination of that and the music, visuals (not bad for the Wii!) and diversity of gameplay really worked for it. Mario Galaxy was somehow magical, and even the sequel didn’t manage to make the same impression on me.

So with this one I’m a little conflicted. I really hope I like the full game more than the demo, and I’m going to try to avoid the hype to judge it on my own as much as possible.

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Chairman Corbyn
1/11/2017 03:43:36 pm

This game sends out a disgusting and outdated message to children.

I mean monarchy of all things. In the 21st Century. Absolutely appalling.

Princess Peach lives a life of luxury and opulence in her palace whilst the people of the Mushroom Kingdom live in the dirt.

A hard-working plumber can’t earn a living from his honest work and has to scrabble around living off any lost coins he can find and eating fungus.

There is also no place for weddings. You should have two loves in your life – for the glorious leader and for the motherland.

I am afraid that Mario in his action is misguided. We socialists would never attempt to rescue a female aristocrat. We have more effective ways of dealing with them.

Our gallic comrades knew what to do. Drag them kicking and screaming through the streets and decapitate them in public.

Even better, our socialist brothers and sisters in Russia just took them outside along with their children and shot them all.

Princess Peach should count herself lucky as she gets to keep her head on her shoulders, marry a hard working single father and earn an honest living cooking and cleaning.

Oh and don’t think I haven’t noticed that you bourgeois scum are spending money on decedent capitalist goods like video games.

I have your names. I know who you are. Come 6th of May 2022 you too will be earning an honest living in the gulags, paying back your debts to the people.

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colincidence link
1/11/2017 04:33:15 pm

Satire works when you have any idea what you're on about.

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applelemon
2/11/2017 09:48:46 pm

He does know what he's on about. Unlike you!

PeskyFletch
3/11/2017 04:09:24 pm

hey superbeast, long time no see.

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applelemon
11/11/2017 05:01:40 pm

You're superbeast.

Keith
1/11/2017 03:46:18 pm

It’s missing the point to say “leave something as simple and fun as mario out of social politics”; it’s in the simplistic and fun that our most casual assumptions manifest themselves, and it’s these straightforward simple examples that can eventually show when something is outmoded.

I mean, imagine video games evolved a few decades earlier - there’s a very good chance that an early gaming icon could have been a golliwog type figure, in simple, fun platform games. Would the nature of the media then make that hypothetical example of an outmoded creative choice valid in perpetuity? Or would there have had to have been a rethink when the issue became glaring?

If the very idea of changing the existing trope in Mario games gets criticised on the basis of politics, it is then inescapable that by implication the person criticising it advocates the continuation of the trope, which is itself a political position; if there’s truly no political desire to continue with something that some people feel is outmoded, then why not react with a shrug, with a “hmm, I don’t see it as a problem, but I dont have a dog in this fight, so yeah, why not change things up next time?”

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Captain Red Dog
1/11/2017 04:43:14 pm

I don't think it's taking a stance to say. It's a Mario game, what does Mario do? Rescues Peach and jumps on turtles. It doesn't need a more advanced plot or exposition or a plot twist.

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colincidence link
1/11/2017 04:37:58 pm

It's been noted on this site before that early drafts of Sonic had him rescuing a fawning, busted damsel, until they thought of something better, the whole environmental/free-the-animals theme that soon mutated into a generic "Robotnik wants to rule the world!".

Sonic will next be trying to save the world from how terrible Sonic Forces is going to be.

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Spiney O’Sullivan
1/11/2017 04:54:03 pm

I can’t decide if her inclusion would have actually made the Sonic fandom any worse.

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colincidence link
1/11/2017 05:03:26 pm

They'd be mad on 'er

colincidence link
1/11/2017 05:09:33 pm

worth noting here that it wasn't long at all before Amy was brought in as a damsel

Spiney O’Sullivan
1/11/2017 05:16:26 pm

Though interestingly, she wasn’t a damsel as a “reward” exactly. The questionable distinction of introducing that to the games belongs to Sonic 06.

Spiney O’Sullivan
2/11/2017 02:25:21 pm

Colincidence, I only just got the “mad on ‘er” pun a day later.

Well done.

Lee
1/11/2017 06:04:40 pm

Agree about the Galaxy comparison. The level design in that game is unparalleled. I'm enjoying Odyssey, a lot, but not in the same way i was in awe of Galaxy.

Something that is irking me though is my joy-con's irritating habit of dropping connection leaving Mario to randomly steam off in some direction other than the one I want.

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PS1Snake
1/11/2017 06:33:58 pm

Isn't it curious thing that in a country full of self-declared feminists, the erotic romance novel 50 Shades of Grey is so very popular? I mean, you'd think a book where a man sexually dominates a young female virgin would sink like a stone in modern Britain.

It as if these feminists secretly desire to be dominated by men.

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Meatballs-me-branch-me-do
1/11/2017 07:14:34 pm

Yes, but Christian Grey is hot and rich so it’s okay. He’s what some corners of the internet call a “Chad”.

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Dennis Rader
1/11/2017 07:56:18 pm

Don't confuse "feminists" with "women".

Only 9% of women in the UK describe themselves as feminists.

You can't undo millions of years of evolution.

I'm a straight male and I want to rescue a Princess. That is hard baked into my genes and not something society instilled in me.

Evolutionary Psychologists will tell you this is *NOT* because I view the Princess as an "object" and feel "entitled" to own her after completing the task, but rather that risking my life to save the Princess raises my position in her eyes within the male dominance hierarchy.

Women select (note that they have the agency, not the men) men who tend to be higher up in the male dominance hierarchy.

Men who take greater risks to increase their status either die, or succeed in the process (or in today's world go bankrupt or become rich). Those who succeed are statistically more likely to be *selected* by the healthiest, most fertile women (yes multiple!) and their genes get passed on.

Hence why men take more risks than women and also why they advertise their status by buying large powerful German cars or wearing expensive watches etc. It is what drives them to compete and seek promotion at work etc. It is in the genes and women are responsible for those traits as *women* throughout history *selected* their mates and therefore chose the type of men and their instinctive behaviours and desires that exist today.

Does that mean women are to "blame" for today's men? Nope. Women who preferred a strong dominant male were more likely to have healthy children who survived into adulthood. Hence the women who naturally like a Christian Grey type were more likely to pass on their genes. It's no ones fault. It's not even a problem. It was a highly successful strategy as evidenced by humans place as the ultimate apex predator on the planet.

It leads to young men, (who buy the majority of AAA video games) having a naturally instinctive desire/attraction to stories where a male, or they as the player, perform a dangerous task to impress a female who exhibits signs of great health and fertility.


Unlike many other primates, human females control reproduction. They are the gate keepers.

In other primates (and a lot of other mammals) the females will allow any male to penetrate them. In those species the males control who gets to reproduce. Higher status males physically prevent lower status males from gaining access to the females. That's a different kettle of fish again.

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Christian Grey
1/11/2017 08:01:40 pm

I resent the implication that my incredible attractiveness is a product of biological and sociological conditional. I’m just really great.

Christian Grey
1/11/2017 08:26:13 pm

Okay, so I can't spell "conditioning", but that nor being what some people might call the very pinnacle of toxic masculinity stops me being the most attractive man on earth.

colincidence link
1/11/2017 08:56:31 pm

Whoah, whoah, who unlocked the douchegate?

Nick
1/11/2017 09:34:41 pm

Something Somthing 37

Keith
1/11/2017 09:51:18 pm

Woah. That’d be a crazy rant if it was arguing directly for some kind of survival of the fittest real life nonsense. But when you consider that that rant is based entirely about what he wants to do with mario...wow

PS1Snake
1/11/2017 11:09:35 pm

Young middle-class women tend to (in my experience) identify as feminists. They also tend to be the ones who are more likely to read books. So I suppose that's why I find 50 Shades' popularity fascinating.

If a woman "enjoys" a book like 50 Shades of Grey, but carries on harping on about the patriarchy and generally being anti-male then that makes her a hypocrite in my book.

All this manufactured outrage at Mario's damsel in distress troupe is all part of the wider "down with the patriarchy" narrative that's spreading across the Western world. It makes me wonder where will it end? Do we go back and revise ancient fairy tales to make them politically correct?

Do we now have to feel uncomfortable about playing older games where you [the male] have to save the beautiful girl? And if we don't feel uncomfortable, does that make us bad men who need "re-education"? It's absurd.

Mario's classic plot is nothing more than a simple vessel to aid player progression. There are plenty more genuinely harmful things happening to women in 2017 than Nintendo choosing to, once again, depict Princess Peach as the damsel in distress.

DEAN
2/11/2017 12:20:23 am

I get where you're coming from, Snake, and I think your heart's in the right place but I see it like this:

Women/girls should be represented in a way that makes them want to join in. It's not a big deal to include them and write a different bullshit story.

The excuse that it's a joke is not true - it's not done ironically.

And let's look at it another way - if Mario was saving his boyfriend then perhaps some people would have been angry about it. But what about homosexual males playing a game where you save a princess?

The 50 Shades thing is more complex than you think - subs are in complete control at all times.

colincidence is always up for a social justice chat link
2/11/2017 12:49:39 am

Take it from a librarian; Millennial Feminists are not the primary 50 Shades demographic.
It's hard to find the stats on this, it's just... not the same people. I have seen plenty of feminist voices state that 50 Shades glorifies abuse. Even if they don't see it that way, enjoying erotica doesn't mean they can't stick up for women in general.

Shit, I typed this before realising PS1guy thinks those who acknowledge patriarchy are anti-male. pubbly woon

Smilin' Peter
1/11/2017 08:51:59 pm

Hey, the Mario universe isn't THAT retrograde. After all, New Donk City does have a female mayor, right?

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Spiney O’Sullivan
1/11/2017 09:42:45 pm

The Mushroom Kingdom is at very least a bit more progressive than Saudi Arabia, as they only just gave women the right to drive, while Peach has been in Mario Kart since the 90s.

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Stuart Hall
1/11/2017 10:57:39 pm

How dare my good name by impeached (pun intended)

I have never met you or stole anything from your childhood though you are right to hold me in so high regard (rolfs cartoon club was ace)

I do feel the need to say that all moves can be done with the pro controller not just the joycons.

You may remember me from the halycon days of gaming before routers and lan. I think you wanted me to beat you over and over (on street fighter 2 turbo) Uncle gary said you like a good thrashing. I think thats what i stole from you - the chance to say my pad isnt working only because you know now as you did then that i am the better games player

So sorry to rob you of your childhood memories/excuses

Agreed with your review - mario - its a knockout

Yours Stuart Hall

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John
2/11/2017 09:17:53 am

Here's a weird thing... I'm fine with Peach being kidnapped. Its never felt odd because the style of Mario provides a sizeable disconnect from the real world. In real life I'd probably object to a portly plumber jumping on tortoises but in Mario its fine.

Now then, were we talking about a more 'realistic' game I'm sure I'd feel differently. But in Mario? Nah...

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DEAN
2/11/2017 09:31:46 am

Sure, John, but that's not the point really - everyone knows the story is bollocks so why not adapt it to make it more inclusive?

It's not like this hasn't come up before and Nintendo are aware that their games have very broad appeal so, again, why not make games that enable everyone to identify as the hero?

Clinging on to tradition is not being reasonable - like Robinson's Jam and their old mascot - times change and Nintendo really should lead by example. Like Disney, they're influential enough both with market and audience to pave the way for a future where being female or gay is recognised as being just as 'normal' as being a straight white male.

Emojis have taken this obvious step and yeah, so should video games.

What's the big deal? Who gives a fuck what Mario's motivation is when any old shit will quite clearly do.

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John
2/11/2017 02:17:38 pm

Well yeh, I don't give two hoots what Mario's motivation is. Nor have I, until now, ever considered that there is a motivation. It has always been miles off my radar because I don't consider anything in the game as in any way relating to the real world. I'm no more bought in to the characterisation than I am to the blocks in Pong. I don't worry about the gender of the pong paddles. I've never considered Peach to be a vulnerable person being exploited any more than I would consider employing Mario to fit a tap.

DEAN
2/11/2017 07:01:28 pm

Sure - it's not something I really thought about either but there's a point in there.



PS1Snake
3/11/2017 12:21:01 am

Why must everyone be able to identify with the hero? Why must every game be inclusive? That's an argument to do away with iconic singular characters altogether and install those hideous mmorpg-style character creators into every game - that way every player can create and thus truly "identify" with their hero. Sounds quite absurd to me.

I don't identify with Solid Snake or pre-reboot Lara Croft or Ryu Hayabusa or Master Chief, but they are the heroes in some of my favourite games. You don't need to identify with the main character to enjoy a particular game.

And what's wrong with tradition? This anti-tradition stuff seems to be gaining a lot of traction in recent years. Tradition can be very important to people. It's part of their culture. It's an element of their identity. I think this is the case with Nintendo and Mario's troupes.

It's not meant to be malicious; it's a part of Nintendo's identity. When people start saying it's wrong to cling on to rather harmless traditions, it comes across as intolerant.

The Peach troupe isn't harming anybody. Find me one woman who says she was psychologically affected or feels inferior to men after playing a Mario platformer. The outrage over Mario is a load of bollocks and would be better directed at things that are actually harming young girls and women on a daily basis in this country.

DEAN
3/11/2017 09:30:40 am

Ok, Snake, ask yourself this:

Would a game where a princess rescues a chap seem weird or wrong?

It would to me. It'd seem like a heavy-handed way of making a point because I'm not used to that idea - men are heroes and women are victims - everyone knows that!

Imagine a world where men and women are treated equally and then imagine how many games you'd play with a shrieking princess and a strapping male hero.

Some traditions are bloody awful; Female genital mutilation for example.

Games that reinforce gender stereotypes are not helping - you could even view them as propaganda.

Aloy
3/11/2017 03:02:56 pm

DEAN - no offence mate but you do play video games right and aren't just one of these political activists?

Not being funny at all - reason I ask is that there are loads of games where a female protagonist saves men. Loads released every year but you don't seem aware of them? Obviously not literally involving a Princess because Royalty and Aristocracy are often portrayed as either weak, fat, lazy, inept or just more focused on politics whilst others do the fighting. Not always the case (e.g. WoW) but a common theme.

Did you play Horizon Zero Dawn? One of the biggest games this year? Involves a woman saving people who it would seem in most cases tend to be male.

Naturally there will be more games where a male saves a woman as the games generally involve situations where enemies dominate others using physical force.

The physically weak are therefore more likely to fall victim and the physically strong are therefore more likely to be combating the enemy.

Trying to subvert that looks ridiculous in some cases. Lara and Aloy pull it off just fine due to the weaponry and stealth used. But it looks utterly ridiculous when Nadine and Chloe are proper toe-to-toe fist fighting soldiers. Suspension of disbelief goes right out of the window. I found the Sci-Fi future of robotic dinosaurs more believable.

Perhaps by not buying said games, you are the problem. I slam my money down on the counter. If those demanding certain representations don't turn off Twitter and actually lay down some hard cash, then games will be tailored for those who do put their money where their mouth is.


Look at the disaster that was the game "Sunset" and the developer even ranting at the all mouth and no trousers BS-artist activists who didn't support them when it counted.

We have also seen that the highly progressive ME flopped and the franchise is all but dead because the activists didn't turn out and buy it. I believe Biowares own figures for previous ME games were that less than 20% of people play as a female character and only around 10% of players were female.

Nintendo's figures were also around 10% despite being the most gender neutral dev out there.

If you are investing 50 million in the development of a product with hundreds of jobs at stake, you and your shareholders are going to want some guarantees that it will be profitable and bring in the punters. What are you gonna do based on those figures? Big male marine with a massive gun saving a hot chick. Done.

But anyway there is a big difference between propaganda and a plot. A plot doesn't have to push politics or attempt to shift public opinion. It can be extremely challenging and unpleasant to the viewer. It can be progressive or regressive. You are not necessarily supposed to "like" it in that sense of walking out feeling happy and cheery. You can come out feeling sad.

The only thing that counts is whether someone is prepared to pay to consume it. The people laying out the dough dictate what gets made.

John
3/11/2017 06:57:01 pm

All this thinking about something I've never bothered considering before has just made me realise something... I have never once not skipped through the intro plot stuff on a Mario game. Probably somewhat related to why the plot never bothered me much...

Billy Dee
3/11/2017 08:11:44 pm

Because they're not required to change the story to appease worthless landwhale feminists and their cockless male "allies" who never shut about being offended. HTH

DEAN
3/11/2017 05:10:23 pm

Aloy - no offence taken and yeah I do play games and have indeed played Horizon.

You make a lot of great points and I totally agree that these things have to make money.

I'm not a political activist and I don't have a Twitter account.

Let's take this back to the start - Mario saving Peach again.
Why?

Mario is a game for everyone - young, old, male or female from anywhere in the World - it transcends race, religion and politics and is the very Mickey Mouse of the video games universe.

I have 2 kids - a daughter and a son and they both like playing video games. My daughter in particular loves playing Mariokart and when she does she will choose a princess - every time!

When we played Mario 3D on the Wii U can you guess who she played as? No prizes, right?!

If I had a Switch and I bought Odyssey then she's going to wonder why she can't play as Peach - because she's been kidnapped by Bowser and Mario has to rescue her.... Bit shit, right?

In a nutshell, Aloy, that's it. It truly wouldn't have been a big deal to have a female avatar back in the game and some other filler story.

The next step is to take a look at the wider picture - the new Star Wars trilogy is commendable for having a strong female hero. The New Star Trek TV series the same. Mario Odyssey was a step back for the franchise and yeah, genuinely, it's disappointing.

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