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INFINITY WAR IS CATNIP FOR CINEMA SNOBS

30/4/2018

84 Comments

 
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Remember the TV version of The Incredible Hulk? You know: the one with the really sad music, that was like The Littlest Hobo, except it wasn't a show about a dog wandering from town to town helping people, but about a man wandering from town to town trying not to get angry, and when he did get angry - once per episode - he'd turn into a big green fellow with terrible hair, who'd roar and throw bins around.

​And then at the end of the episode the sad man would walk away, and the sad music would start, and you knew he was just going to end up in another small town, and somebody would make him angry, and then he'd get sad all over again. 

I used to watch that show just waiting for the moment where he turned into The Hulk. I didn't care about the rest of it; I just wanted Hulk. I wanted a whole show of Hulk, not a show about a sad man, who turned into The Hulk for about two minutes per 45 minute episode. I didn't understand that the drama came from him avoiding anything that might make him angry, but that his better nature would invariably lead him towards situations where there was a risk of him unleashing his green alter-ego. I just wanted a monster throwing bins around.

But that was fine. I got that it was probably a faff to cover a large man in green paint, and probably expensive to get all those throwable bins in. I knew that two minutes of Hulk was all I'd ever get each week. I could live with that, because I still got to see the character I loved from the comics come to life, and knew that the boring bits were there for the people who didn't like super-heroes. This was the price to pay for having the moments I wanted.

Oh, how the tables have turned.

My mind would've collapsed in on itself if I knew that within my lifetime I'd see all of my favourite Marvel super-heroes brought to life in a way that wasn't limited to just once every 45 minutes, that the boring bits would all be stripped out. That those who didn't like super-heroes were now the minority, and the comics fans were the ones being catered for.

Yes: I'm talking about Avengers: Infinity War, like everyone else is. But this isn't a review. It's about snobbery.
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PUTTING THE NOB IN SNOB
See, Avengers: Infinity War is a movie for every kid who ever watched The Incredible Hulk and wanted more (though, ironically, we get less Hulk in this movie than in any of the previous Avengers movies).

It is shamelessly crowd-pleasing, a movie for comics fans, a movie for those of us who read Marvel comics growing up, and wanted to see these characters brought to life. It's a movie for people who just enjoy the potential offered by seeing a movie on a massive screen.

It's an astonishing achievement - I've seen it twice now - that I struggle to wrap my head around. No film with that many characters, that many plot threads, should hang together as well as it does... and yet they pulled it off.

How? Because they ignore that it's a movie. Stuff your three-act structure, Robert McKee - we're treating this like a comic. And, oh man, do the movie parvenus hate that.

Oh, they bleat about super-hero fatigue, how Marvel is dominating cinema, and how it's preventing other sorts of movies getting made. And then, over the weekend, they were forced to choke on their words as Infinity War achieved the biggest box office opening in movie history. How did it manage that? Because an enormous number of people went to see it at the cinema, duh.

The unfortunate reality is that films cost huge amounts of money to make, and no studio is going to shove that money into riskier propositions. Not when films like Blade Runner 2049 - as brilliant as it was - end up flopping. The majority of cinema-goers clearly want spectacle, noise, and stars up on screen.

The thing that the critics are missing is that they also want quality. They want a good story. They want characters that they like, and are keen to see more of.

The Marvel movies are - without exception thus far - incredibly well made. They're engaging, funny, human, and original. They, and Marvel Cinematic Universe caretaker Kevin Feige, are never given enough credit for this. The snobs come out in force, and dismiss them, without acknowledging how easy it would be to get them wrong. Look at almost any of the DC Universe films. With the exception of Wonder Woman, they've ballsed-up everything that Marvel gets right.

But no. Instead, with the release of Infinity War, we're getting the snobbier critics, and fellow movie-makers - hello, James Cameron - moaning about them. What exactly do they want? What's their solution? Just stop making Marvel films when millions of people still want to see them? That isn't going to happen, and all you'd do is just piss people off.

"You can no longer have the things you want, because I - The King of All Things - has deemed that you can only have the things that I deem are worthy!"
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GRUNT
​Comics writer Grant Morrison wrote a book called Supergods: Our World In The Age of the Superhero. He argues that superheroes are our modern myths and legends. I dunno if that's true. Maybe. But complaining about them taking away from other films is missing the point, because the vast majority - clearly - are invested in these films.

If super-hero movies are simply modern myths, then whingeing about them is like a caveman whingeing because Ug's latest cave painting - showing the exciting fight between Ooog-Booga and the woolly mammoth - is more popular than Bongo's cave painting showing him weaving a basket. 

I mean, it's fine if you have a subjective dislike of Infinity War and super-hero films; we've all got different tastes. But don't treat it like there's something objectively wrong with cinema because something is popular. 

Furthermore, don't direct your ire at the studios or the film-makers; direct it at the potential audience who didn't bother going to see Blade Runner 2049, and were responsible for not making Murder On The Orient Express or Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri, or Chappaquiddick, or Eddie the Eagle the biggest movies of all time. That's who you're really pissed off at isn't it? Be honest. You think most people are stupid, mindless, drones. 

I mean, what the hell do you want? Seriously - there are loads of lower-budget films which do just fine. There are also loads of big budget films that don't recoup the investment. Yet Marvel films, because they're good, do. Every time. It's democracy. Whingeing about it is missing the point. Cinema has always been a populist medium, and - importantly - it's an industry. Its survival is dependent entirely on movies which make money. The big films fund the smaller films, and the hype around the big films is part of the process.

A lot of people seem to be taking a degree of irritating pride in the fact that they haven't seen many of the Marvel films. Consequently, one of the recurring complaints I've seen levelled at Infinity War is that it doesn't work as a standalone story. They say it doesn't set up the characters and ends on a cliffhanger. Well, duh. It's a chapter in an ongoing narrative. It's not for you. I didn't much want to see The Fault In Our Stars, but I didn't go on about it.

What Marvel has done is not only bring comics storytelling to the big screen, but made the Marvel franchise more like TV. Which, weirdly, comes at a time when TV is becoming more cinematic.

We live in the age of the boxset, where TV episodes aren't standalone, but tell a big, widescreen, story over multiple episodes. You don't watch episode 12 of a show and complain that it doesn't set up the characters. Why should the Marvel movies be any different, just because they're shown on a much bigger telly?

​The box office take this past weekend demonstrates that enough people are invested in the Marvel characters already for Infinity War to work for them. The number of people going into Infinity War with no knowledge of the Marvel Universe is going to be relatively tiny. The past 10 years of Marvel movies have been the biggest-budgeted TV series of all time. Just because it doesn't work for you, because you're not as invested, doesn't make it wrong.
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DOES IT WORK?
Does Infinity War work as a movie? That depends on your definition of what a movie is. If you're a purist, if you think films are art, and can be only one thing - that they must have a three-act structure, a mid-point turn, must be self-contained - then no... Infinity War doesn't do that.

In fact - while you may not realise it, because the individual moments are all so completely entertaining in and of themselves - it dismantles and ignores the rules of film-making in a way that's every bit as risky and original as something like the challenging Dogville ($10 million budget, $16.7 million box office), or the impenetrable Synecdoche, New York (box office of $4.66 million on a budget of $20 million). Yet it does that while charting a course to become the biggest movie of all time. Isn't that an achievement worth celebrating?

There are so many books, and courses, and scholars, who go on about the "rules" of film-making. Well, stuff rules. Films have been around for over a century. Isn't it time that the rules were challenged in films that are made to be seen by huge audiences?

I hate snobbery. I hate people telling the majority that they're wrong for liking the things they like, for spending their money on things they want. For insisting that stuff can only have worth if it's somehow  an artistic statement (for "artistic statement" read "dull and worthy"). For me, Infinity War - and the ten years of films preceding it - is a celebration of the potential of film-making, and the ability of movies to reach as many people as possible. And I say this as somebody who was pretty certain they were suffering huge-scale CGI battle fatigue.

Of course Infinity War is ridiculous, and bonkers, and completely over-the-top. But it's also incredibly well-made, the product of thousands of people who all had jobs because of it, who clearly worked their arses to the bone to make it as good as it can possibly be.

And audiences have responded to that. Simply put: the audience doesn't want what it doesn't want. And just because you're a sniffy pseud who'd cut off their own lips just to go against the grain, doesn't mean everyone else has to be. 

I can't help but think that the critics who are laying into it would be just as haughty if something like, I dunno, The Light Between Oceans became a massive, popular, franchise, which demolished box office records every time a new instalment was released. What they seem to be railing against, all too often, isn't the product itself... but its popularity.

They're like that mate who refuses to go with the herd, who wants to assert their individuality by only "liking" things that are obscure, or less popular, or more challenging. So from now on, every time a new Marvel movie is released - to huge success - I'm going to enjoy it knowing that its existence is getting beneath the skin of a whole bunch of pompous, condescending, stuffed-shirts. 
84 Comments
lol
30/4/2018 10:07:34 am

McDonalds is catnip for food snobs!

Mrs. Brown's Boys is catnip for TV snobs!

Pop Idol is catnip for TV AND music snobs! that must mean it's REALLY good!

So you like garbage, we all do in some respect. Don't get your knickers in a twist cuz people take this piss out of it

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colincidence with a new album out now!!! link
30/4/2018 01:54:21 pm

Catnip is catnip for cats

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Super Bad Advice
30/4/2018 10:07:59 am

Didn't James Cameron recently have a pop at Wonder Woman as well? Given he hasn't done anything good in decades (Titanic and Avatar being admirable visual spectacles but absolutely awful, boring films with woeful characters), I can't help thinking there's some professional jealousy in there somewhere.

That, or a blind panic that no one gives a crap about 7-foot blue-skinned CGI hippies anymore...

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Clark Kent
30/4/2018 10:08:16 am

I've given up hope of DC getting Superman right.
Feelsbadman

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Bonson
30/4/2018 10:10:45 am

Can't you just like something plebby and not care about what others think? I don't care what people think about me watching Ghost Adventures

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Adam
30/4/2018 10:14:55 am

That's quite a rant and I couldn't agree less. I wouldn't want fans not to have Marvel films and I'm glad you enjoyed it but honestly its mediocre trash. I think people have stopped taking risks too, probably due to cinema ticket prices. Good films do not get the promotion they deserve due to Marvel pap.

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Zaius Ex Machina link
30/4/2018 10:29:23 am

Well spoken. I would absolutely love it if a movie like... Hell or high water had made a billion dollars in the theatres. It doesn't matter if A movie is popular or not. It matters WHICH movies is popular.

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Mr Biffo
30/4/2018 11:46:09 am

Trash in YOUR eyes, Adam.

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Adam
30/4/2018 11:49:27 am

No, it's movies by numbers.

Adam
30/4/2018 11:59:44 am

It's designed in a board room based on statistics gathered from hundreds of test screenings. They know exactlyat what point in the film the average person wants action. Then they start the hype machine up and you have a box office smash. I'm not a film snob I love lots of trashy mediocre films but above all I love originality.

Mr Biffo
30/4/2018 12:19:39 pm

He doth protest too much...

Binkos Renforgs
30/4/2018 10:24:35 am

Familiarity breeds contempt, it's natural and healthy for people to rally against popular stuff

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Zaius Ex Machina link
30/4/2018 10:24:59 am

Why are you making it out as if it is a bad thing to have a higher standard for what constitues a movie. Stop acting butthurt because a miniscule amount of people said that the movie you liked was bad. The numbers speak for themselves, Infinity war is a popular movie. It also breaks the rules of moviemaking without being terrible, I hate the Marvel franchis but i kid of liked Infinity war. The thing is hough, that you are doing the same thing that "the snobs" are doing when you are calling them pompous and snobby. Just because you don't like "The killing of a sacred deer" doesn't mean it is boring and dull. Different strokes for different folks. But ultimately, the sad truth is, that the Marvel movies are so popular beacuse most people are average. They don't want to be challenged or have to do the critical thinking that is necessary to truly appreciate a good movie. >They just want BIG LOUD and FAST entertainmen, because it stimulates the dopamine responses in your brain. Your enjoyment of these movies is not a sign of quality, it just proves that your synapses are reacting to a specific command. These movies are designed, on a molecular level, to make you feel excited. Not to ecited you, but make you FEEL excited. AND that is why the soon-to-be biggest box-office success can't technically be called a movie.

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Biscuits
30/4/2018 10:45:12 am

I love Pixar, but I definitely noticed this after the last Pixar efforts.

Inside Out made me cry at the cinema, and then, even though I knew the emotional beats and the story outcome, it made me cry again when I saw it at home. The reason is, I was not responding to the story, I was responding to emotional cues - a character's eyes widening here, a string flourish there - all meticulously crafted emotional stimulus, rather than an overall rich emotional experience. The same with Coco - temporary manipulation of the senses as opposed to any lasting resonance. It's like the first 10 minutes of Up was an experiment in audience susceptibility

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SweetMrGibs
30/4/2018 02:59:16 pm

"most people are average." Get over yourself, real-life snob.

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Handsome Crab
30/4/2018 09:46:58 pm

"I hate the Marvel franchis but i kid of liked Infinity war."

Why on earth would you subject yourself to two and a half hours of part one to the grand finale of a huge series of films that you hate??

Even if you have a cinema card and watched it for free I really don't understand this thinking.

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Peanut
30/4/2018 10:49:59 pm

Just because he is kidding himself..

Paul
30/4/2018 10:28:53 am

I got bored with Marvel films. I stopped going to the cinema to see them just because there is only so much bickering, explosions and wholesale destruction I can take before my brain shuts down.

Get this:?I genuinely fell asleep at the cinema watching Independence Day.

I love a sci fi flick, and I will no doubt be watching Solo in the local flea pit, but the Marvel stuff just leaves me cold now.

I’ve seen the Marvel films that they show on the telly and, despite what people say (“oh, this one is diffrrrnt” or “you’ll like this one” etc) they’ve been mostly wrong.

They all end up being overwhelming CGI fests, and they leave me cold.

Now, this could be because I never got into Marvel or DC when I was younger (thinking about it, they were never really that evident at the schools so went to), so the whole seeing characters realised in real life never really arose.

I dunno. I’ll catch this one when it turns up in ITV at Christmas in a few years time. Maybe I’ll regret but seeing it at the cinema, but I doubt it.

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Soapdish
30/4/2018 10:38:49 am

Guardians of the Galaxy?

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Adam
30/4/2018 10:30:07 am

I liked Sam Rami's Spider-Man

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Ste Pickford
1/5/2018 09:00:06 am

Amen!

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Adam
30/4/2018 10:38:44 am

I went to see open water in a New York cinema (yes a long time ago) and there was nearly a riot because of the ending. People were throwing seat covers and popcorn and booing. When I left the cinema there was a long queue of people asking for their money back.

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Movie Melvin
30/4/2018 12:18:13 pm

The shark one? Huh?

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Mark M
30/4/2018 10:40:17 am

There are so many of these superhero films out now that I've lost track of what I've seen and what I haven't. I've got bored with it all now and can't be bothered to watch any more of them. I'm sure I'm missing out on something but hey ho.

The last ones I really enjoyed were Deadpool and Ant Man in all honesty. A lot of these films are just a bit generic in feel and seem to merge together into a blob in my mind with the exception of Guardians of the Galaxy and the Dark Knight films.

I can't even remember if Man of Steel was any good or not now although that could be early onset Alzheimer's.

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Soapdish
30/4/2018 03:00:24 pm

It was terrible. Good news is, not Alzheimers. It is just your brain trying to do you a favour

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Soapdish
30/4/2018 10:43:21 am

100% AGREE! I've seen it 3 times already and the fact is that after a few dodgy films, the MCU has been incredible in the last few years and this was the culmination of that.

I really enjoy the Fast and Furious movies. Last year, I really enjoyed Colossal, Three Billboards and The Shape of Water. Blade Runner, while stunning visually, left me a bit underwhelmed mind.

It is possible to enjoy art house as well as summer blockbusters. I don't get why people have to pick and choose.

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Wenkles
30/4/2018 11:35:22 am

I just don't like the CGI superhero stuff. Not out of any sense of obligation, it's just boring and garish and loud

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Geebs
30/4/2018 01:55:36 pm

Blade Runner 2049 was just incoherent. I honestly don’t know what anybody involved in it was thinking.

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Cc
30/4/2018 03:39:51 pm

If I want to see Bladerunner 2049, do I have to have seen the previous 2048 films? I like Bladerunner 1, but I always worry about quality when a film series starts going into quadtruple digits.

Geebs
30/4/2018 04:17:50 pm

Of the previous 2047 films, only Blade Runner 1999: Replican’t and Blade Runner 2000: Repli-can! Are worth your time. Blade Runner 2011: Black and Deckard is a poorly conceived exploitation movie, and Blade Runner 2021: Deckard Does Dallas is lowbrow smut. The rest are entirely forgetttable.

RichardM
30/4/2018 12:10:51 pm

I think I’ve seen every Marvel movie a couple of years later on TV and, to borrow a phrase, have found them all right for what they are: the Iron Mans are the ones that stick in my head. Never really liked Thor that much, but that applies to my dislike of the character in general: gods are boring.

A lot of normies at work were talking about going to see Infinity War, though, which confused and disturbed me.

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Neptunium
30/4/2018 12:34:26 pm

I lost interest in superhero movies a long time ago - it's an area of cinema which is completely oversaturated. They went from once a year events to the current 436 per year events, and each subsequent film seems less noteworthy than its predecessor. It got exhausting to keep up, to be frank. I have a fear that the same will happen to Star Wars with the Solo movie coming out in the Summer rather than at Xxxmas like the rest. Soon Disney will be firing them out so quickly that it'll become exhausting keeping up with them and I'll have to admit defeat and watch Woody Allen "comedies" or pretentious arthouse movies that are dull even though they show ladies private parts.

As a former comic book nerd (DC ROOLZ) it's interesting that whilst my interest has waned, the non-nerd world are still hungry for the Marvel movie pipeline.

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Ian
30/4/2018 12:44:47 pm

Here's the thing though. I got bored of the cinematic Marvel pantheon around the same time as Ironing Board Man 3. There were outliers, sure. But I'm just not excited by Infinity War.
Maybe it's 'cause I grew up reading 2000AD instead of Marvel Dunno. Perhaps I'd feel different if this was Nemesis vs Torquemada featuring the ABC Warriors.

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Johnc
30/4/2018 12:48:23 pm

It must be hard being a film critic - knowing that films like the MCU ones will always get a massive audience no matter what you say about them. And the ones you like may well get overlooked. Still, it's just a fucking job - they could always go and get a boring job like the rest of us if making a living reviewing other people's artistic efforts has lost its appeal.

Personally I'll continue to invest my sparse spare time in things I know I will enjoy no matter how low brow.

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Nick
30/4/2018 12:59:34 pm

As an active member of the snob community (we meet in Waitrose every third Thursday) I find the anti-snob tone deeply offensive.

I don't mind a Marvel film. I make no great effort to see them but I'm always pleasantly surprised by how 'alright' they are when I'm bored on Netflix or when their on TV.

I am slightly perplexed by their continued popularity, especially here. The thing is, where did the audience come from? Thinking back, I can’t remember a single person from school that read American superhero comics or had even a passing interest in them. It feels a little like implanted nostalgia. Or maybe there was an extra sublevel of nerdom I never noticed.

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RichardM
30/4/2018 01:05:50 pm

I think everyone in the world knows about Spiderman and possibly Iron Man, the Hulk and Thor are a grey area, an as for Doctor Strange... Heck, I even caught my mum - a retired teacher in her late 60s - watching The Amazing Spider-Man on TV not so long ago.

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Nick
30/4/2018 04:38:29 pm

I guess you’re right. There is enough general recognisability for almost anyone. I was probably falsely equating them with the sort of retro/revival films. And hell, it’s been ten years of the things; They are the culture now.

Geebs
30/4/2018 01:51:39 pm

It’s reliable family entertainment, like the other Disney movies. People who don’t usuallly like the same things can go see them together, and nobody feels too left out.

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Kohhna link
2/5/2018 07:49:03 pm

Hmm, where did it come from? Well, I'm in my mid 30s, most of my early contact with the Marvel universe was through the cartoon series from the 90s. I am a comic fan but was never particularly into those comics. My conclusion would be that the films themselves are quite good and have built their audience as they've gone along. Some have been better than others but none have been terrible and some have been extremely good relative to each other at least. I think the choice of getting in genuinely good directors like Joss Whedon, Jon Favreau, James Gunn, Ryan Coogler and Taika Waititi to make them has made all the difference between the MCU and the Fox X Men film franchise or the DCEU.

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Stoo
30/4/2018 01:21:42 pm

The marvel movies can be a bit samey on some level. And with a few exceptions, the villains are usually forgettable. But on the whole they are still very well constructed Brightly coloured, generally upbeat and positive, with likeable heroes. Basically all I'd want from a superhero movie? And now every hero on screen punching things together? Sounds fantastic! I am eager to see Infinity War, even if I expect it to be a bit exhausting.

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Jam
30/4/2018 01:23:36 pm

You seem more positive about it now that you did the other day on Twitter. Was it the second viewing wot done it?

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Mr Biffo
30/4/2018 02:44:31 pm

Yep!

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Geebs
30/4/2018 01:48:31 pm

I can’t really be bothered with badly CGI’d giant alien chins, so I’m giving this one a miss.

However, I don’t think it’s particularly controversial to suggest that each of the recent Marvel movies would be improved by cutting out half an hour of the heroes mindlessly mowing down a zillion alien mooks who go down in a single hit, and replacing that with a villain with a bit of personality and who can’t be defeated by punching alone. Supermans (Supermen?) 1 and 2 already demonstrated how to do it perfectly.

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Nick R
30/4/2018 03:21:45 pm

Although action scenes with a few, individually identifiable enemies with personal connections to the heroes are usually preferable, many of my favourite action scenes are of the "canon fodder horde" variety: The Matrix, Samurai Jack, The Killer and Hard Boiled, Lord of the Rings, The Raid, many Jackie Chan movies...

And I class the best Marvel action finales up there with them. In their best cases (Avengers 1), I think they do a great job of having the canon fodder hordes provide a constant backdrop of spectacle, while variation comes with the momentary jokes, fight choreography, battlefield geography, character moments, power combinations (which the MCU generally does better than X-Men or other live-action superhero features), civilian rescues, etc.

Some of them *do* have villains with a bit of personality and who need to be defeated in creative ways: sometimes alone (Dr Strange, Spider-Man Homecoming), sometimes with the personal fight taking place in addition to the big horde of anonymous drones (Black Panther, Thor Ragnarok), and once - in Captain America: Civil War - with no big villain fight at all.

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Vending Machine
30/4/2018 02:33:13 pm

It's not snobbish to realise that the marvel movies are badly written, badly acted, lowest common denominator trash designed to appeal to the masses. They ARE bad movies.

I don;t really get why you wrote this piece, it's as if recently you are determined to become more and more condescending and 'edgey' in the hope you go viral on twitter. The result is i'm starting to think that the twiiter guy could be right and that you actually a prick.

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Mr Biffo
30/4/2018 02:44:10 pm

Pot calling the kettle black there.

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Vending Machine
30/4/2018 03:04:55 pm

It's ok, i'll let you get back to writing your next piece, maybe something anti Trump, that'll rile them and get some retweets.

Mr Biffo
30/4/2018 03:05:59 pm

Vending Machine is a silly person.

Soapdish
30/4/2018 03:04:44 pm

They are not badly written. I mean, I can think of plenty of badly written movies. But all 19 Marvel Movies have connections to each other. For a throw away medium, Marvel films, and a fair amount of Comic Book movies, are really well written. Are they the most original? No. But they are coherent. if you want to see a badly written movie, go check out Rampage, one of the worst I have seen in some time.

I think you are the only prick here by looking down on what millions of people the round see as entertainment

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Sorton
30/4/2018 03:23:33 pm

I think he is being a prick due to the way he conducts himself, but thinking someone is a prick because they don't like something that lots of other people do like is a slippery slope indeed

Cc
30/4/2018 03:45:27 pm

Hey! Easy on the pricks, people. (Not something I thought I’d ever say #risquegoodtimes)

Soapdish
30/4/2018 03:33:23 pm

Sorton, they may have come out wrong. Having a difference of opinon with regards to something others find popular is not the issue. Believe me, I like Wrestling. I don't think anyone who doesn't like it is a prick. But if they then try and belittle people for their choices and things they like, then I don't think that is nice behavior at all.

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Cain Marko
30/4/2018 03:34:53 pm

I don't get the point of this article - these movies are massively popular so they're going to continue making them, so what's the problem? That some people don't like them and have the temerity to say so? So what? Why are you so defensive about it? Have some confidence in your opinions man!

"if you think films are art, and can be only one thing - that they must have a three-act structure, a mid-point turn, must be self-contained"
This is an odd line - as is your preoccupation that film-types cherish the three-act structure - as so-called 'art' films are just the sort of movies to challenge these rules, generally it's the mainstream which clings to them so much.

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Mr Biffo
30/4/2018 03:55:51 pm

1110101010101011111110111...!

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Hoity Toit Man
30/4/2018 04:09:27 pm

Delighted to whiff a welcome air of pretension here today, good work all, sincerely

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Treacle
30/4/2018 04:09:53 pm

I think overall I agree with you Biffo. I've not seen the new avengers film yet but we're planning a trip to the cinema soon. I'm also planning an afternoon at my local art house cinema to see Beast, which I'm also looking forward to seeing. Thing is, I know some people will call me a pleb for seeing Avengers while others will call me a snob for going to see Beast. But here's the thing, I genuinely don't care and I'm not going to apologise for liking what I like. Many a passenger in my car has moaned about my eclectic musical tastes only to be surprised when something they actually quite like comes on.

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Rufio1980
30/4/2018 04:27:34 pm

I never cease to be amazed at how seriously people take themselves in the comments section on here. I can almost hear how hard people are hitting their keyboards in a furiously pointless anger.

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Mrtankthreat
30/4/2018 04:45:42 pm

The thing I don't get is how people can watch the same movie twice in such a short space of time. Even if it was the best movie ever I'd need to take a bit of time away from it after the first viewing.

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DEAN
1/5/2018 08:53:13 am

I went to see Phantom Menace 9 times!

I understand where you're coming from but it's not like how you think - you know when you're at a water park and you've just gone down the big slide? Do it again, man!

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Retro Resolution
30/4/2018 06:05:38 pm

Is Infinity War art or trash? Is TLJ the greatest Star Wars movie ever, or a franchise killer?
I don't know, because I'm too ill to go to a cinema, where such films are best appreciated.
It's interesting sitting on the sidelines, unable to participate. Some people don't appreciate how lucky they are.
Btw I have a First class degree in English Language and Literature, yet most of my favourite music, films, novels, games, and TV shows, in the decades since graduating, have been trash by any standard. So what? It's subjective and meaningless, as my opinion has no inherent value.

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BobMonkeypimp
30/4/2018 06:48:24 pm

Awful lot of closet movie snobs here.

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Dr. Budd Buttocks, MD
30/4/2018 08:44:16 pm

Pixelated Boat's review is the only one that matters, as far as I'm concerned.

"(Spoiler Warning) It was two and a half hours of special effects punching other special effects. I'm very tired"

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S Hawke
30/4/2018 09:14:13 pm

I had to go on wikipedia to see what catnip is. I thought it was some kind of old drink, like Babycham

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Starbuck
30/4/2018 10:03:42 pm

Thinking about the outro theme tune to the Incredible Hulk TV show still kills me. I hold that show entirely responsible for my dismal emotional balance.

Anyway, I've never seen any Marvel films except for the first two X-Men films, not because I didn't want to, but because I struggle to find the time (I need the excuse of interested kids to make it happen).

However, I'm badly excited about the thought of cinemaing this one.

I did see Alien Covenant though, which I really loved. Hadn't seen the backlash at the time; no surprise that Cameron dissed it too. The joke's on him though - I've not seen Avatar either.

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Starbuck
30/4/2018 10:08:43 pm

Forgot to say, I **have** played Lego Marvel Superheroes on the Wii U. In the film, does the Hulk hover a foot or two across the ground, and do the characters get stuck in walls?

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Super Space Hero
1/5/2018 01:51:30 am

Going along with this, does the movie get down to framerates that make it difficult to play when using a gamepad and screen together for multiplayer?

gildea44
30/4/2018 10:31:55 pm

Great article. Completely agree.

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Irregular Shed
30/4/2018 10:41:13 pm

Can't believe it's got to over sixty comments without anyone mentioning Pudsey: The Movie.

For shame.

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The decider of all things good
1/5/2018 06:41:48 am

The thing peoples pompous erections here are forgetting is 'subjectivity'
As in can a movie, song, art be inherently good or bad? Sure, we could go with a general consensus but still does that mean it's good or bad?
Movies and art forms in general are neither good or bad, they just are and if you happen to like them great! If not it doesn't really matter now does it?
Be nice to each other people.

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darbotron
1/5/2018 01:10:55 pm

But what's better, Marvel or DC?

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darbotron
1/5/2018 01:13:02 pm

Trick question! Everyone knows DC is better
.
.
.
at being rubbish!

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Kohhna link
2/5/2018 07:24:03 pm

The comics, it depends. They can both be good or bad depending on the writer / artist team involved. That said DC has Vertigo and it published Watchmen, one of the high points of the medium in modern times.

Films - Marvel by a country mile. Most of the DCEU films have just been a parade of shit from start to finish. Marvel proper, i.e. the properties owned by Marvel and not by Fox, have been mostly quite good, giving James Gunn the Guardians films was a masterstroke for example. The Fox properties owned by Marvel, meh a bit more of a mixed bag. We've had the first two Spiderman films, some of the X Men films (including Logan) and Deadpool, but we've also had Spiderman 3, the Garfield-Spidies, most of the X Men films and all attempts at the Fantastic 4, which have ranged from dull to just awful.

On TV, the Marvel Netflix stuff is generally great (with exceptions). Agent Carter and Agents of SHIELD have been enjoyable though have had their ups and downs. Legion (part of the X-Verse and owned by Fox) is excellent. Some of DC's TV shows have been quite good.

One area where DC has excelled and has been completely on top has been the animated stuff. Going as far back as the Batman series from the 90s, which led on to the Superman, Justice League and other stuff from that studio and that team have been of a high quality. I hear that the Teen Titans stuff that's been done recently is up at that level too. Marvel's efforts at cartoons during the 90s was enjoyable (I have fond memories of the 90s X Men) but not nearly as good.

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Barry Normal
1/5/2018 11:16:59 pm

Do I genuinely love Predator, Commando, etc? Yes.
Do I think they are high art, or existentially meaningful cinema? No.
Does that stop me liking them? No.
Do I think that despite this, many talented people worked hard on them and did well? Yes.
Do I like some clever, arty films too? Yes.
All of them? No.
Are some films sort of in-between? Yes.
Can art ever be objectively good? Tricky. Sort of.
Will I get angry if a proper film critic slags off Predator, without having watched it, simply because it's got Arnie in? A bit.
Will I get angry if a proper film critic slags off Predator, after watching it? No.
Would they stop me enjoying it, or make me feel bad about enjoying it? No.
Is it good that different people can like what they like? Yes.
Is it ok that critics exist and tend to have a certain aligned value framework in their field? Yes.
Do I have to be on one side or the other? There are no sides, that's animal tribal programming kicking in, because on some small level one feels threatened.
Do I sometimes react like that too though? Yes.
Am I a pretentious wanker making a point to have liked Synecdoche New York? No, I just liked it.
Do I like Deadpool too? Yes, very good.
Do I like all the new superhero movies? No, they are mostly formulaic and boring these days, after you've seen a few. That's why I liked Deadpool.
Have I even seen most of them though? Haha, no!
Who cares what I think? Probably no-one! LOL!

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Starbuck
1/5/2018 11:50:13 pm

And why not? (Do you see?).

Fin.

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Taucher
2/5/2018 08:50:51 am

I resent superhero films because they seem to be all that is considered blockbuster films recently. I have no interest in them but many of my friends do. I do not consider myself a snob. But in the past we would have Jaws, Back to the Future, Jurassic Park l, to name a few, but now originality is too risky.

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oishiiniku
2/5/2018 09:05:35 am

I'm about to get snobbish, so buckle up!

The term 'bliss point' exists in the food industry as a way to describe the the amounts of salt, sugar and fat which optimize tastiness in products like soft drinks, cereal, ready made sauces etc. Finding the bliss point for a particular product, which will keep consumers buying it, is the reason that there is often an overabundance of salt, sugar and fat in processed food.

I think that Disney, through its Marvel movies and other franchises, has perfected a formula for making movies that achieve a kind of cinematic bliss point: Giving the audience the right amount of all the expected elements of a blockbuster (Explosions! Fighting! Portentous character moments!) but often to the detriment of creating memorable stories or characters that remain after the credits roll.

Making movies that have the broadest appeal possible is perhaps more of a science than it is an art. Marvel films are often criticized (by us hoity-toity elites!) as being samey and unmemorable; of feeling flat despite all the 'stuff' that is happening. I would argue that this is a deliberate consequence of making films that have true global appeal: They have to be blandly palatable and generic enough to cross cultural borders as smoothly as possible.

The MCU – if anything - is an achievement of 10 years of unprecedented brand loyalty. The complexity of the machine they have created to seed and grow anticipation for their franchise movies is quite staggering: The movies are cleverly linked together in a way that builds excitement for the next installment; trailers and brand tie-ins keep our awareness of Marvel at a constantly high level; Supporting media products like TV shows link to the tent pole money makers to further strengthen our connection to the Marvel brand etc. None of this is new or unique to Disney, but their dominant position in the cultural landscape means that they can keep us aware of their brands to a singular degree.

So, for me, Marvel's success is akin to that of something like McDonalds. And I'll happily take my kids to get a Happy Meal once in a while (and wolf down 10 chicken McNuggets without pause or shame), but after the meal I'm quickly left feeling unfulfilled and a bit queasy, that the experience didn't live up to the promise of the advertising or the memory of the last time I ate there. But in spite of this dissatisfaction, I will no doubt feel compelled to return again.

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Bob Snob
2/5/2018 10:11:17 am

Hear hear!

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gildea44
2/5/2018 02:54:30 pm

Given this has been going on for 10 years and only going from strength to strength I think it is somewhat disingenuous to assert that the characters disappear after the credits role.

The characters have connected with many, many people.

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Kohhna
2/5/2018 07:01:48 pm

If its just about the mechanistic hitting of bliss points then why has the formula not been adequately replicated by Burger King (DC) who have been even more micro-engineered and have only came up with inferior quality product?

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oishiiniku
2/5/2018 07:35:38 pm

Well, I guess their formula isn't as successful. Marvel and DC movies definitely have distinctly different tones. Of the two, I would say that MCU is generally the more optimistic and light-hearted.

DC seem to be caught between continuing the dark, gritty tone of the Nolan Batman movies and moving towards something more Marvel-esque. I'm no expert on either though.

gildea44
2/5/2018 10:31:49 pm

If it was as simple as a formula then everyone would be doing it. The results would be reproducible.

I think this maybe the crux of the matter under discussion, the inability to recognise (appreciate or not) the craft and art in making these films.

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oishiiniku
4/5/2018 01:19:18 pm

Why would the existence of a successful formula make it simple and easy to copy? Just because you know how to do something well and can do it repeatedly doesn't mean that someone else can reverse engineer that process and replicate it.

And I don't doubt that a lot of very talented people are involved with the MCU - the films are undoubtedly polished works with high production values. But as stories, I don't personally feel that they are anything more than mediocre.

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gildea44
5/5/2018 11:47:02 am

Well we're now into the use of language.

The way you described the marvel production process using the word formula implied little artistic expression and the creatives involved were simply following a procedure (the formula).

The word formula is reductive and implies it can be followed and reproduced. You mentioned science where reproducibility is the gold standard. Otherwise it's not formula it's skill, craft, art etc.

Your clarification suggests formula was the wrong word for you. Being able to do something well repeatedly is not a formula, its a skill (art or craft etc). If I write the process down and it can be reproduced by others then yes formula. Otherwise it will remain a skill. Others too can develop this skill by practice but a formula means certainty of outcome.

Scientists don't get water only 50% the time when they combine H2O

Let's do an example to try and explain the way I perceive the difference
-Christiano Ronaldo writes out his method for scoring free kicks. Regardless of time and effort I will not able follow his formula because at a certain skill ceiling it's the expression of the persons abilities.
-Gordon Ramsay could write out his method for making toast. I'm never going to be a chef of his calibre but I'm confident I could follow his formula for making toast.

I do not doubt your sincerity in finding the movies mediocre but you've extrapolated a personal opinion of quality into a reductive concept of how the movies are made and other peoples opinion of them which dismisses the evidence to the contrary.





...mind you the movies are certainly, generally, formulaic but that is not the same thing...

K9's Biggest Fan
5/5/2018 10:27:22 am

I agree with absolutely every word of this.

I think that the MCU films are great and represent a genuinely unique and impressive achievement. I reject virtually every common criticism of them.

They are well-written. To regularly make films that have heart, character, drama, humour, and good action is a lot harder to do than I think a lot of people recognise. I do not work in the industry so it could be argued that I'm talking out of my ass; however, you only have to look at the volume of mainstream films coming out of Hollywood that fail to successfully achieve many or any of those elements to deduce it's difficult. Just really take a moment to think about this: there is so much dross out there, including in the superhero genre, and by any fair objective standard the MCU are well-crafted by comparison. The MCU also gets a bonus point in my opinion for being written in a way that effectively links them all together (which is mostly successful and has improved a lot in recent films).

They are well-acted. I don't know anyone who has seen, for example, Robert Downey Junior in Civil War could realistically suggest otherwise (objectively speaking). The actors are generally at least solid and never phone in their performances.

They are genuinely original, innovative and imaginative. Again, I don't know how anyone who has seen the likes of Guardians of the Galaxy or Thor Ragnarok could realistically suggest otherwise (again, objectively speaking). Those films simply would not have got made even 10 years ago - not with the production values and audience they now get at least. Elements of Dr Strange and Ragnarok are bonkers by the standards of mainstream Hollywood.

I do think that the common criticism of them degenerating into soulless CGI punch ups by the end of each film is valid (once again, objectively speaking), but even on this point the series is arguably maturing. Civil War basically ended with Tony and Steve having a punch up, an encounter which was charged with emotion and history. GotG 2, Thor Ragnarok and Infinity War ended with a lot of action, but there were real stakes and peril, and the characters and universe were changed as a result.

I fully understand that all films are subjectively received and I would never tell anyone that they're wrong for not enjoying this series. Ultimately they are loud, stuffed with CGI, and (on the surface at least) very similar to each other tonally and, to a large extent, visually.

Nevertheless, in my opinion, and by any reasonable objective standard, they are well-made films that represent a genuine achievement, and in my view Kevin Feige deserves enormous credit. I appreciate that this may stick in the throat of cinema fans who crave more originality and diversity from Hollywood but, as Biffo says, the MCU is not the problem. The problem is the people who didn't turn up to watch the likes of Blade Runner 2049.

In any event, I would argue that some of the recent MCU films would encourage more risk-taking in mainstream Hollywood, given how out there elements of them are. Maybe it's because I'm old enough to remember what a wasteland the superhero genre was in the 1980s and 1990s, but as a fan of the genre I for one only celebrate the MCU.

I would happily watch two or three MCU films of the standard we've been getting every year for the rest of my life. I love them. Judging by the box office of Black Panther and Infinity War, I'm not the only one, so whether you like or dislike the series or not, it's not going anywhere anytime soon. Again, as Biffo suggests, there are still plenty of other excellent films out there which are low budget / indie / alternative (whatever the vernacular is) to watch if you don't like them. I watch that stuff too incidentally!

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