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CAN I STILL PLAY THE LAST NIGHT, EVEN IF ITS DEVELOPER IS A GAMERGATER? - by Mr Biffo

12/6/2017

80 Comments

 
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So here's a thing. My potential highlight of E3 so far is a cheeky little game called The Last Night.

It has since been revealed that the lead developer has - or had - some sort of affiliation/sympathy with the Gamergate movement. Yes: just when you thought that they'd scurried away to support Trump... it transpires that Gamergate is still out there, still causing a stink, and its opponents are still kicking off whenever its name is mentioned.

Off the back of this revelation about The Last Night, Zoe Quinn - the independent developer and Gamergate flashpoint, whom I'm sure you don't need me to remind you about - has advocated boycotting it. And off the back of that, Notch - the hat-wearing idiot creator of Minecraft - decided to call her a "c*nt" on Twitter.

Now, the C-word is considered bad enough in the UK, but the American use of the word - in the way that it was seemingly applied in this instance (despite Notch not being American, and always wearing that stupid hat) - is several degrees more offensive.

 In short: it's not a very nice thing to say to anyone, least of all a woman.

It saddens me that Gamergate is still rumbling along. I watched - well, skimmed - one video off the back of this latest brouhaha, which had some godawful white male nerd bringing up everything that kicked it off years ago. Once again, it was as if he had been personally slighted by the alleged behaviour of Zoe Quinn, and simply hadn't been able to move on.

Zoe Quinn can be annoying. I understand that. I think she's made as many problems for herself as those she's had to deal with unfairly. But for Notch... the zillionaire grotesque creator of potentially the biggest game of the last ten years to wade into this and call her names? Well, that's just tragic. You've got to feel for him. All the money in the world hasn't done anything to fix his awful personality issues.

But what this brings up for me is this: can, and should, we enjoy games that are made by people whose views we don't agree with?

​Will I still be able to play and enjoy The Last Night?
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TRUE GLITT
Confession: I've seen Gary Glitter in concert.

In fact, he was the first pop star I was ever a fan of - but I couldn't listen to his records now any more than I could watch an episode of Jim'll Fix It. It doesn't make songs like Hello Hello I'm Back Again and I'm The Leader Of The Gang I Am any less good - but it's impossible, for me at least, to separate them from the man who made them.

That's an extreme example, of course; Glitter and Savile were convicted of disgusting crimes, rather than holding certain opinions that I don't agree with.

I don't want to consider what I'd do if one of my favourite musical acts was revealed to be a paedophile - although there are plenty of questions hanging over, say, Michael Jackson. Still, given that he was never convicted of anything means that I can still enjoy his music... but I can't listen to Don't Stop 'Till You Get Enough without wondering whether there was substance to those questions.

And that's a shame, because it was - maybe still is, I dunno - one of my favourite songs.

I voted Labour in last week's General Election, but lots of people I know voted Conservative. However, that isn't going to colour my view of them as people. Well, maybe it will slightly, but it wouldn't be a deal breaker. My oldest friend was once a Conversative councillor, and it never affected our friendship one bit. In fact, I admired his principles and reasons for moving into politics, and admired him even more when he chose to get out.

Political affiliations - at least, providing those affiliations aren't towards more extreme political movements - are at the other end to paedophilia on the what-might-be-unacceptable scale.

Gamergate - and its own satellite affiliations - for me, falls somewhere in the middle, leaning slightly towards the more extreme end. Unfortunately, there are such out-of-control passions from both sides that finding any nuance or moderate ground, and getting through the enflamed emotions and dog-whistling to the truth, is usually impossible.
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FLOODGATES
The Gamergate reaction to Zoe Quinn highlighting the alleged Gamergate background of The Last Night's developer has been completely over-the-top.

They've accused her of "bullying" him - poor little snowflakes that they are - and from what I can gather she did nothing of the sort. I concede she might well have overreacted - it wouldn't be the first time - but bullying? Hardly.

Nonetheless, for the corpulent onanist Notch to then wade in, for Gamergate commentators to start abusing her on videos once again... it's just tiresome, and galling. If that isn't bullying, I don't know what is. As before, it's like they're poised on a knife-edge, just waiting for their "enemy" to screw up, so that they have an excuse to pile onto her. To say there isn't misogyny involved is pointless. 

​By the same token, Tim Soret - the developer Quinn and others have taken issue with - has certainly been piled upon rather too gleefully by some of those who stand opposed to Gamergate. I mean, at least one of his 2014 Twitter comments - an off-hand remark about the work of Anita Sarkeesian consisting of "saying video games are making you sexist" - is one I can, I admit, broadly agree with (and don't get me started on Brianna Wu bringing the Manchester suicide bombings back around to "sexism"...).

Three years ago, when Tim Soret's comments first came to light - before being dug up again this week - he sought to defend these comments on the IdleThumbs forum, decrying harassment of women, and beginning a long statement with: "I am for a better representation of women in video games. I want more female characters, written to be interesting & less cliché, and I also want more female developers in the industry."

From reading his original Tweets, I saw little in there that felt particularly extreme, though his wording was doubtlessly clumsy and naive, and the affiliation with Gamergate is, of course, loaded and raises all sorts of questions.
STATEMENTAL
As the PR nightmare threatened to consume The Last Night, its publisher issued a statement: "We at Raw Fury believe in equality, believe in feminism, and believe everyone has a right and chance at the equal pursuit of happiness. We would not be working with Tim Soret/Odd Tales at all if we believed they were against these principles in any aspect.

"The comments Tim made in 2014 are certainly surprising and don’t fit the person we know, and we hope that everyone reading this who knows us at Raw Fury on a personal and professional level knows that we wouldn’t tolerate working with someone who portrays the caricature of Tim going around the internet right now."


It continued: "The wording of his statements toward feminism in 2014 was poor, and his buying into GamerGate as a movement on the notion that it represented gamers against journalists was naive, but in the same year he also cheered the rise of women in gaming.

"In a similar situation as the one happening now, folks on the IdleThumbs forums found questionable tweets and Tim took it upon himself to address them. What came from that was a dialogue where different viewpoints were considered and debated in a purposeful way."


Eventually, the statement concluded: "Debating Anita Sarkeesian’s efforts toward highlighting sexism in the games industry is touchy, and though Tim’s post back then was naive we felt that he wasn’t being malicious like so many others have been to Anita in the past, so we share all of this with the hope people can see that first hand. We understand that no matter what there will be people who will not look at Tim the same again and we respect that, too.

"A lot can change in three years, including viewpoints, and Tim has assured us that The Last Night does not spout a message steeped in regressive stances. We trust Tim and know that he is an advocate for progression both in and outside of our industry, and we hope that this will be apparent moving forward."

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HEADS ON STICKKS
Ultimately... I'm not sure that the Raw Fury statement helps me much when it comes to The Last Night.

As with anything to do with Gamergate, people want blood and heads on sticks - whether it's Zoe Quinn's or Tim Soret's. It's the sort of statement which does absolutely nothing to help the situation, and is so wishy-washy as to end up like one of own my articles on the issue, which only ever gets me grief from both sides.

In short: it soft-pedals when it comes to not upsetting anyone, which neither side ever likes. When it comes to Gamergate, if you seek debate, or nuance, or try to hunt out the middle ground, you become an enemy of both camps. I've learned that to my own peril.

Yet here I am again, trying to tear down the Israel-Gaza wall...!

From the previous time I tried to understand Gamergate, I learned that - much as there are moderate Conversatives and more extreme, self-serving, ones - there were, within the overall umbrella of the godawful and otherwise risible Gamergate movement, moderates (for want of a better word) with honourable intentions. However blind and misguided they might've been to the rest of the movement's behaviour...

What I'm getting from this storm over The Last Night that it's mostly old news, and that Tim Soret might be more from the moderate end. And, mostly likely, being a bit unsophisticated in how he attempted to articulate his views.

My gut reaction upon reading that Tim Soret was a "supporter" of Gamergate was disappointment that I'd never play The Last Night. Upon digging a bit deeper into it, and trying to maintain something approaching balance, I think - providing nothing else surfaces about him - that I probably will. 

Aside from the fact that Soret is not the only person working on The Last Night (punishing all of them for a handful of three-year old Tweets from one of their team members seems ludicrously unfair) I refuse to be drawn into somebody else's battle, or have them choose which games I'm supposed to enjoy.

That's all we can do in these instance; take each matter as it arises and try to learn what the story actually is, without letting our instinctual prejudices blind us.

Though if Notch ever gets off his wealthy rse and makes another game, I'll be at the front of the queue. You know: the queue to kick every single copy of his game to tiny little pieces.
FROM THE ARCHIVE:
WHOOP-WHOOP! MICROSOFT AT E3 - BY MR BIFFO
ONE YEAR ON: GAMERGATE EXPLAINED
IT'S GAMERGATE AMNESTY DAY! LET US CELEBRATE TOGETHER WITH THESE 16 TOTALLY BODACIOUS PARTY DOGS!
80 Comments
Barry Chickpeas
12/6/2017 05:27:07 pm

Umm, not overly comfortable with the fat-shaming in this article if I'm honest. He's an absolute cretin for his words here, his weight doesn't have any relevance.

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MrPSB
12/6/2017 05:37:34 pm

OK, well I'm a big fatty and Notch is a fatty fatty no friends.

I am too, mind, but I don't have billions of dollars.

Shit.

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Mr Biffo
12/6/2017 05:43:52 pm

Yeah, uh... hurling childish insults at home as sort of the point. And I'm hardly a wait myself...

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Mr Biffo
12/6/2017 05:44:45 pm

*At home = at him. Whatevs. I'm at the shops.

MrPSB
12/6/2017 05:50:08 pm

At the shops buying BLAND CRISPS to stuff your face with

Mr Biffo
12/6/2017 05:50:59 pm

Also... wait = waif. Trying to comment on my phone while walking round Morissons is a losing game.

Mr Biffo
12/6/2017 07:08:03 pm

Do you know what I bought at the shops, Mr PSB? I bought BEEF flavour McCoys and BEEF flavour Space Raiders, and I bought a six-pack of Nik-Nask. So IN YOUR FACE (in my face).

Wrist Flapper
12/6/2017 08:22:52 pm

Biffles, you know I love you deeply, but Barry's not the only one uncomfortable with your choice of approach regarding Notch. I understand you're trying to make a point, but isn't that the same arguement PewDiePie used? I've never really subscribed to the idea that you're allowed to hurl a thing at other people if you're that thing yourself. For all we know, his sense of self-esteem steming from his weight could be the underlying cause of his dickishness.

Other than that, as insightful and interesting an article as we've come to expect from you.

Mr Biffo
12/6/2017 08:38:24 pm

I'm about *this* far away from removing this post, because I am tired. Right. Sod it. I'll call him something else instead.

Wrist Flapper
12/6/2017 09:07:37 pm

My comment was not intended to offend you. I apologise.

Mr Biffo
12/6/2017 09:22:16 pm

No need to apologise, WF. I obviously touched a nerve with that fatty references, and the comment about the C-word, so I was just venting.

Nick
12/6/2017 09:56:54 pm

I'm a porky git who also has exceptionally poor taste in hats. I never been more insulted!!

You sir are a scoundrel!

Wet Ham
12/6/2017 05:32:51 pm

I think ultimately it comes down to whether you want any of your money to go to a person you may think is an appalling twit.

For instance, I love pizza. There's a pizza restaurant downstairs from my flat. The people who run the pizza place are the biggest arseholes I have ever met in my life. Therefore, I would sooner stick a rusty trombone through my eye than pay for one of their delicious pizzas.

In conclusion: I now want pizza.

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Paul C
12/6/2017 07:08:06 pm

Is Soret *actually* an appalling twit, though?

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AcidBeard
13/6/2017 10:40:46 pm

I feel the same way about paying taxes. Having to pay VAT on arsehole pizza would be the absolute worst and I hope I am never faced with such a situation.

In conclusion: Now I want arsehole pizza.

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Spiney O'Sullivan
12/6/2017 05:43:36 pm

Well, this comments thread will end well.

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Spiney O'Sullivan
12/6/2017 06:06:53 pm

To be more productive:

I like to think I can separate art from artist, but that's not really true consistently. For example, I still like the Beatles, even knowing that John Lennon was a terrible abusive husband and awful father (besides, George was the best). On the other hand, I'm a bit soured on films by Roman Polanski, and increasingly having issues liking The Who (thanks Pete Townsend). So I guess I'm hypocrite, but then, aren't we all?

Granted Polanski and Townshend's crimes are orders of magnitude above tweeting an opinion (unless it's an incitement to violence or hate speech). Basically, play this guy's game if you want to?

(As for Gamergate, the only winning move is not to play)

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PinballWizbit
13/6/2017 09:35:28 am

I can just about buy Townsend's excuse. It's not as if he was glorifying or revelling in Paedophilia when he wrote "fiddling about" for Tommy.

DEAN
14/6/2017 09:39:44 am

I don't buy it.

For starters, Behind Blue Eyes sounds like the manifesto of a sociopath.

Let's assume that Pete's not stupid. He must have known he was at the very least encouraging those sorts of things when he put his card details in. I think his researching hand would have been put to better use taking notes from academic papers or from speaking to a trained professional. Why did he need to see such heinously obscene material?

Makes me very angry.... I can't listen to his music anymore.

But then I'm an owner operator of an iPhone and we all know what hideously bad apples Apple are.

Why cunts sell shit to fools
Damien Hirst , 2004:
http://www.damienhirst.com/texts/2004/jan--damien-hirst

Spiney O'Sullivan
14/6/2017 09:59:21 am

I'd agree that Tommy doesn't seem to glorify that, and he's actually hinted at that kind of abuse in his childhood. But man, it is a strange excuse. "Trying to prove that British banks allow these transactions to happen".

Technically speaking he was cleared of the charges, so I guess I should technically give him the benefit of the doubt. But it's such an incredibly bizarre decision to have made.

Either way, the doubt sort of clings to some music that I really like, which sucks.

DEAN
14/6/2017 11:11:40 am

Was that the line? I didn't know that. I just heard that he was researching for a book.
So that covered him for beyond all reasonable doubt. But the doubt remains and I agree, it's too bizarre.

Did he ever release his book on banking ethics?

RichardM
12/6/2017 05:45:20 pm

I did not know the American invocation of the C-word was so extreme: I will probably never say it again, even in jest.

Have written and re-written a comment about Gamergate several times and can't quite get my feelings down. It's just shit and awful and should go away. Fuck the whole thing for tarnishing my hobby.

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Meatballs-me-branch-me-do
13/6/2017 12:56:02 am

Meanwhile "spaz" over here in Norf Amerikah is almost completely harmless and there's even a mouthwash called "Scope".

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Scott C
18/6/2017 09:20:42 pm

On a trip to America this week I bought an Almond Snickers branded with "Spunky" in white packaging. Also tasteful Donald Trump chocolate. mmmm.

Ben
12/6/2017 06:00:28 pm

So long as Testology aren't doing QA on it...

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Arthur B link
12/6/2017 06:02:01 pm

My take:

Gamergate, if you poke into its history, pretty much undeniably originated as an after-the-fact justification for much cruder harassment of Zoe Quinn and others earlier on. (Remember how the hashtag for it was #BurgersandFries and the crude joke behind that, before someone coined "Gamergate"?)

The claimed issues raised about ethics in games journalism had a veneer of legitimacy, but at the same time it was odd how only certain *types* of perceived ethical issue ever made any headway. It kind of felt like that there was a certain groupthink going on, as there is in any online movement, and that groupthink treated some perceived "ethics" breaches much more harshly than others; basically, people were much harsher about games they didn't like for ideological, reactionary reasons than they were about the latest Call of Duty, despite the fact that you can pretty much guarantee that there was way more undue pressure put on reviews and games journalists to get a certain kind of coverage than that than a random indie developer could ever dream of exerting.

So to the very, very limited extent that Gamergate had a point, it was a point which a) could not only happily be pursued without associating with Gamergate, but b) could probably be *more successfully* pursued without latching yourself to Gamergate. Why take on a name which has so much baggage, and had so much baggage right from the start? Why take a label which would immediately make the people you are trying to persuade hostile to you?

In the case of Tim Soret, based on the comments found it sounds like he is - or at least, in 2014 was - one of those guys who gets very het up about defending Gamergate as a group rather than just advancing the point supposedly being made. That's usually a red flag for me, because in my experience the more loudly someone ties their colours to that mast the more likely they are to be one of the toxic crew rather than some moderate chap who got taken in momentarily.

The guy wanted to put Vivian James, the actual Gamergate mascot, into his game, and he also put energy into attempting to argue that Gamergate had literally nothing to do with sexism or Zoe Quinn. There's a tweet where he seriously tries to persuade people that if you spent a few days reading up on Gamergate you'd find that it had "nothing" to do with sexism or Zoe Quinn, which at best is self-serving hyperbole and at worst is an outright lie. He also did some tweets in French repeating the Gamergate claim that Zoe Quinn simply made up all of the harassment against her.

I have never seen anyone take those specific positions if they were not part of the regressive hard core of Gamergate - mostly because those aren't things you can genuinely believe are true if you have looked into the subject anywhere near to the extent Tim claimed to have done. A genuinely "moderate Gamergater" would acknowledge that there was a severe problem with people pestering Zoe Quinn, condemn that, and move on. When you combine that with him having tweets talking about how the game is specifically a dystopia where "progressivism" has gone too far, he really does sound like a /pol/ fellow-traveller.

Now, that doesn't mean the statement from the developers was wrong; he'd hardly be the first person to have one persona in their professional life and a different one when talking smack on web forums. But it does mean that in this instance I can't really see him as being a moderate Gamergater - he repeats too many of the hardcore 'gaters talking points for that.

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Little Joe, the sexist, racist, online harasser who loves Trump
12/6/2017 06:48:32 pm

"basically, people were much harsher about games they didn't like for ideological, reactionary reasons than they were about the latest Call of Duty"


Would that be the same Call of Duty that became the second most down-rated video in the history of Youtube, coming second only to Justin Bieber by any chance?

Oops, the facts just went off narrative. None of the "SJW games" you refer to (most of which I own) made the top 1000.

Also worth pointing out that the "harassment" narrative has been dispelled or brought into serious question by the EU, Twitter/BAM and the FBI files that were released following FOI requests. There is certainly no evidence or prosecutions to substantiate any of the accusations.

A report by the EU showed that those using the Gamergate hashtag (and remember ANYONE can use it for any motive including third party trolls and false flags) were less likely to be suspended than the average Twitter user.


According to BAM/Twitter, only half a percent of accounts using the anonymous hash tag posted anything that constituted "harassment" under the VERY wide definitions no doubt used.

Released FBI files support what was suspected by those on the GG side all along - that being that the threats were being made by third party trolls or some random 14 year old kid in his moms basement. Emails from the FBI to the victims showed that the victims were specifically aware that perpetrators were from well known trolling sites and the FBI employees pleaded with the victims not to seek online publicity as it would make detecting and prosecuting harder.

Certain victims ignored that advice and went straight out online to falsely accuse innocent people for political gain.

As for why Quinns sex life was an issue.... Quinn was a notorious Social Justice blogger who wrote a well known controversial blog post stating that if you cheat on a partner and continue to sleep with them, you are effectively committing an act of rape because consent would not be given/would be withdrawn if their partner knew the truth.

She then cheated with multiple people behind her boyfriends back. Like the Conservative party MP's who got caught cheating after ramming their morality down people's throats with the "back to basics" campaign, she faced a big backlash. Those MP's received threats, suffered massive press intrusion in their private lives but at no point were classified as a victim and didn't get their own personal BBC journalist and totally uncontested platform to smear innocent people.

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Pepe
12/6/2017 06:58:15 pm

Arthur B BTFO

PeskyFletch
14/6/2017 10:35:51 am

You know you can just type "superbeast" as your name on these posts, it'd be a lot quicker than making up a new one every time.

MenuWars
12/6/2017 06:03:16 pm

Saying the C word is in anyway comparable to the N word is absolute madness.

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Arthur B. link
12/6/2017 06:12:17 pm

No, I can see the analogy as far as the US goes. It's much more targeted as a misogynistic slur there than it is over here.

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MenuWars
12/6/2017 06:15:50 pm

I disagree, but people seem to love being perpetually offended, so who cares what I think.

Can't stand most of the GG crew, but I've played games by people I don't like before and will do so again. Provided it's actually decent.

The_C_World
13/6/2017 09:43:56 am

This is the second time this issue has been flagged up for me in news this week, and I'd never noticed the issue before.

I can't believe those American cunts have ruined "cunt". I'm off to buy some Irvine Welsh books. Or watch something with Ricky Grover in.

sleepydays
12/6/2017 06:51:29 pm

Yeah, that stood out to me as being a good bit wide of the mark.

The N-word carries a specific, historical weight in the US that the C-word obviously does not have. I was brought up in Glasgow where it's almost a term of endearment, but I now live in the US and whilst it definitely has a bit more heft here. People might not like hearing it, but I refuse to buy into the idea that it's some kind of aural hate crime.

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sleepydays
12/6/2017 06:53:07 pm

URGH, what a mess I made of that post... please excuse my appalling sentence structure.

Mr Biffo
12/6/2017 07:45:52 pm

Ah, sod it. I'll err on the side of caution and change that bit.

MenuWars
12/6/2017 10:47:12 pm

Thanks Biffo.

Kendall9000
12/6/2017 06:19:07 pm

The Last Night looks interesting - I might not have even heard of it without this kerfuffle, so that's one little positive from my own selfish perspective. I doubt most of its potential audience cares enough about this ongoing online drama to affect sales one way or another.

I tend to agree with you about the Gamergate movement as a whole - any "ethics in gaming" moral high ground was eroded right from the start, with the childish trolling and "slutshaming" of Quinn. There's certainly some irony in any of them claiming to be bullied oppressed victims, while accusing other people of hypersensitive snowflakery.

However, I feel almost exactly the same way about the SJW set - including the fact that there are, within the overall umbrella of the godawful and otherwise risible social justice movement, moderates (for want of a better word) with honourable intentions. However blind and misguided they might be to the rest of the movement's behaviour...

My negative feelings towards the self-righteous moral busybodies in that crowd wouldn't stop me playing games they created. Not even ones from the likes of Wu and Quinn, if they ever made a game that wasn't dismal.

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Dragon
17/6/2017 03:00:49 pm

Is it really slut shaming to point out someone is getting awards and good reviews from people they've had sexual relations with?

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Kendall9000
18/6/2017 09:41:40 pm

I haven't seen any solid evidence that she really got awards and good reviews because of that.

I'll admit that it's hard to see why else a HTML choose-your-own adventure could get her celebrated as a significant game developer, but what I'm referring to as slut shaming isn't people making that accusation, it's stuff like Photoshopping Quinn's face into porn screenshots.

That, and people repeatedly calling her a slut and shaming her for it - not my idea of ethics.

blotch
12/6/2017 06:44:20 pm

*checks last.fm to see if anybody still listens to lostprophets*

As for all the GG bullshit, I've decided to completely avoid it at all, other than occasionally via the pages of digi. The world is so insufferable, isn't it?

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Mr Biffo
12/6/2017 07:08:40 pm

It really can be...

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Raybies
12/6/2017 06:44:41 pm

I've been checking out the gamergate sub reddit for about a year now.

I see a lot of nutjobs there, but I also see a lot of people who came there by association: "you disagree, you must be a gamergater!"

I can also say, at least there, they are not Trump supporters as a whole or even (visibly at least) a majority.

I see them get pissed off at the non disclosure of pre existing relationships between Devs and journos, big and small, much like the old days of "review our games after we send you somewhere nice" or that guy who got fired from IGN for giving Kane and Lynch a bad review.

I also see them being outraged when Women, Blacks, Asians, Gays are set upon by fuckwits like Graham Linehan and Wil Wheaton for having the wrong opinions.

They endeared themselves to me helping to spread news of assholes trying to ruin Metal and Punk gigs, trying to set up safe spaces in mosh pits. Much like gamers, metal heads tend to be nerds (making me a double nerd) and inclusivity in metal goes like this : You like metal? You're in, just don't take the piss, we get enough already. If you don't want to mosh, don't go in the pit.

Nothing is ever simple, but to me, Gamergate is a prime example of having a good point and having absolute shitheads alongside you ruin it all. Much like activists reputations being ruined by the Social Justice mob.

But that's the Internet for you, a couple of years ago, you didn't cross One Direction or Justin Bieber fans online.

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Linen_Finish
13/6/2017 11:44:46 am

I've popped my head into the KotaukInAction subreddit over the last two years and from what I've seen Their ire at various "celebrities" does seems to be reserved for people who've criticised them. And they do love to scour peoples history for a mistake so they can pull a "see their as bad as they say we are!".

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JK
13/6/2017 12:17:47 pm

It's about opposing hypocricy and double standards. If you're the sort of person who constantly talks about how terrible GG is, yet has said/done worse in the past yourself, then it deserves to be exposed to the world.

No exaggeration, GG has exposed actual convicted sex offenders, pedos and sexual harassers of women in the gaming community who were hiding in plain sight using feminism as a shield.

King of Duckhenrys
12/6/2017 06:45:36 pm

You know that Notch is Swedish right? It's probably one of the top 3 defining characteristics of Notch after Minecraft and the hat thing.

But I have to disagree that a C bomb is in anyway comparable to a N bomb. It's an old English word for a fanny that, along with words like "piss" got designated a swear at some point. It is not a symbol of hundreds of years of oppression and worse.

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Mr Biffo
12/6/2017 07:02:42 pm

Obviously I know it doesn't have those connotations, and I used that as an extreme example to try and explain how the word is considered A LOT more offensive in the US than it is over here.

Though really, debating how offensive any word is could be considered utterly pointless, given, well... how exactly do you measure offence? Is there some sort of sliding scale, where words are marked out of ten? Surely it's in the eye of the person it's targeted at?

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King of Duckhenrys
12/6/2017 08:27:17 pm

I apologise, in my sleep deprived state I misread the bit of the article that clearly said Notch is NOT an american as that you somehow thought that he was (and that was why the insult was so bad).

JK
13/6/2017 09:05:47 am

Using this drama to shill her book (as Quinn has done) is indeed c-wordy behavior, IMO.

Oh and she was also spreading lies about the content of his game.

https://twitter.com/mombot/status/874499800325963776

Paul C
12/6/2017 06:55:36 pm

Notch is being a prize bellend - you'd think a literal billionaire would be able to find something better to do.

But I'm leaning towards thinking The Last Night guy hasn't done anything particularly wrong.

I've been looking at some of the allegedly damning stuff he's said, and while yes he performed the satanic rite of posting #gamergate on twitter, he doesn't come across as a particularly aggressive or militant person.

In fact as far as I can tell he's unfailingly polite and just kind of... calmly states his opinions on stuff, which don't seem to be all that extreme either.

I mean, I looked at his twitter and not long ago he was bemoaning France opted for centrist Macron instead of the Bernie Sanders equivalent, hardly the words of a rabid right winger.

As for the game itself, from his statements here:

"What if surveillence, bullying, marginalisation won't come from governments but from the internet.

Finally we'll have another take on the cyberpunk oppression Big Brother / 1984 / HAL / big companies

I find it interesting to show the danger of extreme progressivism in the background of the game, the characters, the story.

Our game The Last Night will take place in a world where modern feminism won, and not egalitarianism"

...it's fairly clear he's talking about the culture of online ideological witch hunts. That's actually an interesting and timely topic for a sci-fi story, potentially at least.

Now needless to say it's pretty ironic to be criticising online witch hunts under the banner of #gamergate.

But if his point is that progressivism and feminism when pushed to extremes can be an oppressive, bullying force, this collective push to ostracise him and his project for daring to suggest such a thing isn't exactly proving him wrong.

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Sexist Joe
12/6/2017 07:33:43 pm

I'd defend the right of wealthy Notch to call out people who he believes are exhibiting appalling behaviour as much as I would defend the substantially wealthy Bob Geldof, Lily Allen or J K Rowling who all do the same thing.

They are all entitled to express a public opinion (short of inciting violence or threatening behaviour) and I will back any of them in doing so even if I don't agree with some of the things some of them say.

I'm not someone who polices language but he used a genital related insult to describe her just as you just used a genital related insult to describe Notch!

I defend your right to do that and I defend his right to use the word he used.

I believe the word was appropriate given the harassing behaviour she was displaying and I don't grant women special exemption from genital-related insults anymore than I would a man. I don't consider your genital related insult to be worse than his. The use of the word was acceptable given the potential consequences of her behaviour for the developer given that Quinn commands a pretty large and unpleasant mob who (using the same standards of evidence as are used to convict Gamergaters) have been involved in doxing, threatening individuals AND their children, and getting people fired on false pretences.

People were trying to destroy his livelihood as demonstrated by the flood of lies, exaggerations and smears sent to the publisher in the hope of getting his game dropped. That is utterly unacceptable behaviour.

Whilst I don't hold those with a large social media following responsible for the actions of people they don't control (unless they specifically incite it), I do feel that they need to be aware that there can be unintended consequences. That applies to Quinn and Notch alike.

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JK
13/6/2017 09:16:14 am

> The use of the word was acceptable given the potential consequences of her behaviour for the developer given that Quinn commands a pretty large and unpleasant mob who (using the same standards of evidence as are used to convict Gamergaters) have been involved in doxing, threatening individuals AND their children, and getting people fired on false pretences.

Yes, this is correct:

https://heatst.com/tech/chat-logs-expose-crash-override-network-as-online-bullies/

https://heatst.com/tech/new-leaks-reveal-crash-override-networks-online-harassment/

https://heatst.com/tech/gaming-press-ignores-shocking-new-revelations-in-gamergate/

https://bonegolem.wordpress.com/2016/10/01/a-digest-of-the-crash-override-network-logs/

Funny that this wasn't more widely-reported, huh?

Spiney O'Sullivan
12/6/2017 10:41:06 pm

If 2016 and 2017 have taught us anything, it's that some billionaires do in fact have nothing better to do than be bellends.

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Dragon
17/6/2017 02:53:57 pm

Social media was a mistake.

NotBiffo
12/6/2017 07:12:38 pm

Zoe Quinn's just pissed that her "games" will never be featured in a conference watched by hundreds of thousands of people, nor will it ever be bought because people actually want to play it. Oh and BTW, you can buy her book. And give her money on Patreon for literally doing nothing. And donate to her game jam that's totally going to happen any day now.

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MrPSB
12/6/2017 07:19:21 pm

Oh look, a cunt.

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Applelemon
17/6/2017 02:11:48 pm

Great reply.

benoit
12/6/2017 07:20:29 pm

Just to add more fuel to the fire, Savile wasn't actually convicted of anything.

What with all the celebrities who knew of his 'decades of horrifying abuse' waiting until he was conveniently dead before making non-specific allegations that they heard someone say they knew someone told them that he might have touched someone's bum

Reply
MenuWars
12/6/2017 07:35:07 pm

Certain people called out his actions way before he dead, there were definitely people complicit and protecting him/them. I think that much is clear, I agree waiting so long to do anything about it makes it look terrible, but you still have to look at the mounting evidence and testimonies and not brush it off.

Reply
benoit
12/6/2017 08:02:27 pm

Without the chance to face his accusers in court, whither justice?

That's why I won't rest until the rotting corpse of that faded TV star is exhumed and wheelbarrowed into the dock, whilst afore him is paraded an endless stream of his victims, all of whom will demonstrate exactly how the bad man touched them.

ChorltonWheelie
12/6/2017 07:33:14 pm

In reference to your question...Wagner? So yes you can.
Sod it, most of the music I love was knocked out by misogynistic smack addled arseholes ('cept the dreamy Daniel O'Donnell obvs).
The the 'line' to be crossed is in your head. Can you contextualise it and appreciate the beauty of something even though you know what the artist is? If so congratulations, if not...ah well knob heads are everywhere. The point is it's about wider society and not about the individual artist when it comes to us judging art in context.

Also, anyone who thinks using the N work is ok is a cunt.

Reply
S Hawke
12/6/2017 09:09:56 pm

I vaguely remember Zoe Quinn coming out as transgender a while ago, so I guess this article is like super problematic to the max, y'all.

Reply
name withhelsd
12/6/2017 10:27:09 pm

Zhe completely ignored that once it didn't result in zher's patreon bucks topping up.

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GenderCorrectionSpecialist
13/6/2017 09:52:15 am

Aren't you getting confused with Brianna Wu?

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S Hawke
13/6/2017 06:28:51 pm

Nope, check out Quinn's wikipedia page, no female pronouns.

Nick
12/6/2017 09:53:44 pm

Interesting and balanced article. I wasn't aware of this story before reading and think my views are broadly in line with yours. Take it case by case and try not to knee jerk one way or the other.

I was slightly disappointed we didn't see a return of the Drama Triangle who has become one of my favourite Digi characters.



Reply
Karpman the Drama Triangle
12/6/2017 10:54:38 pm

I still don't know why everyone accuses me of victim-blaming. If anything, I'm the one being persecuted. But where's my rescuers?

Reply
Col. Asdasd
14/6/2017 08:15:49 pm

Thank you Mario, but our victim is in another triangle!

Damon link
13/6/2017 12:24:53 am

Firstly, I'm American and maybe it's an age thing or where I live but pretty much only cunts get offended when you say cunt. It's used her by men and women alike to describe usually females but in this day and age a man can also certainly be a cunt. Cunt is essentially the word you use when fucker isn't strong enough.

Secondly, children will namecall, let's all move on with our lives. Notch is obviously a kidult, manchild or whatever the phraseology of the day is.

Third, I have no issues separating the object from the inventor. Do people not drive on the Autobahn because Hitler built it? Is then, by extension, everyone who uses a major highway implicitly supporting the NAZI party and anti-Semitic sympathies? OF FUCKING COURSE NOT. THAT WOULD BE RIDICULOUS. Mind, I probably wouldn't play Auschwitz Simulator but provided there's no aggressive overtone of a creator's social agenda in a game I usually don't know or care. And I don't plan to start now.

Reply
JK
13/6/2017 08:59:46 am

> They've accused her of "bullying" him - poor little snowflakes that they are - and from what I can gather she did nothing of the sort. I concede she might well have overreacted - it wouldn't be the first time - but bullying? Hardly.

I think you missed the calls for the guy to be blacklisted, following ZQ's tweets, from her supporters. These are people who have some influence within indie gaming circles. I think this is what people are talking about.

http://archive.is/H3lhG https://archive.fo/p0Csb

Reply
Mr Biffo
13/6/2017 09:27:30 am

Well... I saw several people blame ZQ for this specifically. Of course, it doesn't take much for the mob to get riled up.

Reply
JK
13/6/2017 09:42:54 am

Did you see my reply further up? ZQ spreading lies about the content of his game.

https://twitter.com/mombot/status/874499800325963776

JK
13/6/2017 09:51:29 am

Also, Quinn is not new to the internet.

She knows full well the result of imflammatory public call-out posts from people with large followings of politically-engaged people, be it followers going after the target or in terms of media coverage.

"I didn't specifically tell anyone to do anything, I was just giving my opinion" is the same logic Milo used with Leslie Jones - and it was wrong then too.

Spiney O'Sullivan
13/6/2017 10:42:00 am

I'll grant you that, JK. She of all people should understand just how easily a huge internet dogpile can be started, and what the ramifications of that for people's lives are. Even if you disagree with someone's ideology, it's very easy to ruin a life online, and that won't actually do anything to convince hem of the strength of your argument.

It's very easy to forget that real humans sit on the other end of the Internet. Gamergate as a whole (on both sides) is a perfect example of this.

I'm going to sound like a clapped-out old hippie, but people need to sit and talk and understand each other rather than yelling at straw men, because everybody on earth sees themselves as the good guy in their story.

Mr Biffo§
13/6/2017 01:00:29 pm

I'm with Spiney. It gets mocked as a solution - and people like us get dismissed as being hippies or touchy-feely - but the reality is that there is no other road to a solution.

Kendall9000
13/6/2017 07:45:10 pm

The hyperbole on display whenever there's this kind of drama always amazes me.

Someone who disagrees on specific issues while stating a belief in equality = a misogynistic piece of shit who thinks all women are garbage and should be kicked out of the games industry forthwith...

I've seen several people call Tim Soret a cunt too, but obviously that's OK if it's aimed at a bloke.

It's not just the gaming crowd, there's the same kind of OTT stuff in most of the Twitter drama I run across.

Look up what happened when Larry Garfield (a lead Drupal CMS developer) was doxxed and outed as having a kinky male dominant sex life.

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/03/29/drupal_dev_banished/

There's crossover between Drupal and my real life professional community, so I followed it pretty closely on Twitter. It wasn't enough for people who wanted him kicked out to say that they were simply uncomfortable with his private life, they had to label him a rapist and abuser who literally wants women enslaved.

When women who'd worked with him challenged the idea that he was an extreme misogynist, they weren't just misguided, they were enemies of feminism and betraying their gender. Each of them a "filthy snake traitor", to quote one feminist activist.

https://twitter.com/shanley/status/852602575182483457

Or for a currently ongoing kerfuffle, there's the social justice excommunication of YouTube feminist Laci Green. She got too friendly with a politically "problematic" fellow YouTuber (Chris Ray Gun) and ended up doxxed and defamed over it.

https://twitter.com/gogreen18/status/872264564737327104

She's not just making a mistake, she's betrayed everything she's meant to stand for, and of course Chris Ray Gun disagreeing with Antifa's violent methods makes him a "white supremacist Nazi apologist"...

It's language that kills any possibility of reasonable discussion just as surely as calling someone a cunt.

Reply
Da5e
13/6/2017 10:28:01 am

If you're going to refuse to experience art because the person who made it is a bit of a twat, you're going to miss out on a lot - and unless you carefully research the pasts of everyone whose art you consume, you're a hypocrite or, at best, lazy ethically. Play computer games if you like them, listen to music if you enjoy it, watch films if they appeal to you; don't deny yourself something that might move you on weird principle.

Peste Noire are really good, you know?

Reply
AJS
14/6/2017 12:29:24 pm

This is me arriving at the party when everyone has already gone to bed. It looks like I've just read the edited version too.

"I'm about *this* far away from removing this post"

Biffo, you should never feel like you have to remove a post for explaining your opinions (these are opinion pieces after all). Continue to write in your unique way and please don't water anything down.

You say stuff I don't always agree with, like the Spectrum is better than the C64, but that's okay I know that there's a special spot in Hell for people who say such things. You'll eventually get your comeuppance.

Keep up the good work!

Reply
Wrist Flapper
14/6/2017 01:32:00 pm

I didn't write the response to have the article edited, more to ask if it was the most productive approach to the issue. People should never feel that they have to change in order to appease others, but it's right that we speak up when we see something we don't necessarily agree with. That is, after all, the seed from which these opinion pieces grow in the first place.

It certainly wasn't my intention to promote censorship. Lord Biffleston is often the voice of reason sitting in no man's land whilst the extremists of both sides hurl artillery over him, and that should be applauded rather than attacked. This is why I apologised. Furthermore, I extend the offer of a cuddle.

Reply
dan de la peche
14/6/2017 01:22:59 pm

Can *you* separate the shart from the shartist?

Reply



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